To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

Do you actually know any young transgender children?

You're talking about them as if they are adults who have had 30 years of being raised as a male

You get some males and some females in each but you have grouped by interest and outlook in life....not by genitals....which SHOULD be totally irrelevant for 10 yo

Arguing that they should be irrelevant doesn't make them irrelevant. 10 yo will have 10 years of socialisation behind them. You can't simply identify out of your oppression by saying genitals don't matter.
Transactivists believes that genitals should be changed to match personality so it's a bit rich to say they are an irrelevance.

'You get some males and some females in each but you have grouped by interest and outlook in life....not by genitals....which SHOULD be totally irrelevant for 10 yo....'

But female biology is far more than genitals. At ten girls are often starting to get self conscious over growing breasts and body hair, or lack thereof. I would have considered it a really mean thing to do to my 10 year old dd to make her change with boys.

"Biologically male/female" is meaningless. There are more than two naturally occurring arrangements of genitalia and reproductive organs, more than two naturally occuring configurations of chromosomes, more than two naturally occuring balances of sex hormones.

It really isn't meaningless. As with all mammals, there are two sexes, male and female. The egg of the female combined with the sperm of the male is how we reproduce. Mammals cannot reproduce by combining sperm with sperm or eggs with eggs.

Of course some people are infertile, or born with birth defects - this does not prove that biological sex is "not a thing"

ArcheryAnnie - that's what happened at a couple of residential trips I did as a teen. One when I was 18, two when I was mid teen. No small bunk rooms, a huge dorm room for all. Individual shower cubicles.

We all survived.

Criticise my analogy all you want, I agree it's over simplified but it's the best way I can think to explain it. In basic terms, someone who is trans has a body that does not match how they view themselves in terms of gender. It's not about wanting to wear girls clothes or play with toys that are designated by society as girly

Place marking.

"Girls born with a vagina"

WTAF?! It's "girls" Full Stop.

OP I agree with you. I believe it's essential to my DDs self esteem that they have access to female only spaces I think you've articulated your reasons really clearly and they're valid.

It bewilders me that women are so keen to ride roughshod over the rights of the next generation

babies see that exemplifies the logical inconsistency of your problem with this.

You don't want boys there, because you fear they will act like stereotypical boys, and be all superheroes and bossy and take over.

Plus or minus gender dysmorphic issues, surely the whole point of a trans girl is that she identifies with the female stereotype....so a trans girl turning up and acting like a stereotypical boy is basically a nonsense isn't it?

Morphene and so why would a kid who have been socialised as male, who has been taught by society from birth that their needs must come first, be a good addition to a group of girls who need to unlearn all that stuff?

I would say someone with a penis, however they identify, who insists on colonising female space despite opposition from girls who are threatened by this is doing the very opposite of what you describe as "acting in a female way".

Girls...This thread is about girls and girls rights. Nothing to do with non girls and what they want or feel.

I am ignoring any reply which does not centre girls in it.

Ps. I do have a lovely DS who I love dearly but this thread is about my daughters only.

This thread is so sad. I really wouldn't have an issue. How brave is this child to identify as a female openly at the age of 10 when he was born male. How hard must life be on a daily basis. Growing up is difficult enough. I would want my child to try and be a friend.

I don't know how I feel about this...

I, unlike the OP, don't believe that gender is simply a social construct.

But what I don't see is why we can't have spaces for people 'of the female sex'/'bio girls/women'?

I don't think girls should be expected to be ok with an infringement on their space by people of the male sex. Who, as the OP correctly said, will never understand the pain of periods, for example.

I used to vomit, feel shaky (and farty... oops) and just generally awesome. I remembered treasuring the time during camps in all female dorms where we knew that everybody had to deal with that 'ickiness' to some degree.

Sorry I haven't read the thread but surely the OP should have to change the title to show she is talking (horribly!) about transgender children and not "boys at guides "

I'm not a woman because I've got a vagina, or because of my chromosomes (I don't even know whether I've got XX chromosomes, nobody's ever checked), or because of the balance of oestrogen/testosterone in my body. I'm a woman just because and exactly because I feel like a woman. The same thing is true for trans women, who are no less women than I am.

Sorry but this is utter bollocks. You are a woman defined by your biology. What does 'I feel like a woman' mean? I don't feel like a woman - I am one though.

Saying biology is meaningless is fucking offensive to females who go through FGM, infanticide because of heir SEX, whoa re trafficked, abused and treated horrifically the world over...because of their SEX! Do you think people performing FGM on newborn's ask them if they feel like a girl before they do it? I don't think people realise how dangerous it is to females to chuck the biology argument out of the window.

When a child is born it could have a vagina, a penis, both or none. The doctor then decides based on the genitalia the sex of the child. However, that child may not feel they are that sex. They are born in the wrong body. I have a vagina, I was therefore determind as a girl at birth. Luckily I feel like that decision was the right one. My niece has a vagina and was determined a girl at birth. That decision was also correct. she will only wear her brothers clothes. Therefore although she ostensibly looks like a boy and people mistake her for a boy she feels like she is a girl. A trans child does NOT feel like that. They feel they are in the wrong body. It's not about gender stereotyping (that's a separate issue that some feminists muddy the water with), it's about being in the wrong body!!!! This sort of bigotry your displaying destroys lives. It's pathetic

Generally awful. not* awesome.

archery but are trans girls actually sociallized as boys? They came out of the process of their early sociallizing wishing to be treated as female. They wish to conform to the female stereotypes....so have they actually been sociallized as boys? It looks to me more that they have been sociallized as girls tbh?

Every day people make assumptions about me based on my genitalia, thus it has always been, thus it will always be. I don't identify with those assumptions, and I spend a lot of time, even in professional environments fighting those assumptions. Mostly they are inflicted on me by male bodied people. I wanted my girls to join Guiding precisely because they would have a space free of those assumptions.

To watch girls loose themselves from societal expectations, even for an hour, and just be free, just them, is so uplifting. They deserve that freedom. That is what Guiding has defended so strongly for 100 years, and will continue to defend, I hope. A space just for girls to be themselves.

Did you know, OP, that trans women are women, not men, and that trans girls are girls, not boys?

Unfortunately that is incorrect. Transwomen are MALE, by definition. Trans girls are MALE, by definition.

Spaces should be sex segregated NOT gender segregated. I'm quite sad that GGUK has seen fit to subscribe to gender stereotyping, rather than try and smash those artificial walls down.

BraveDancing at 18 you are an adult and can make your own decisions. Mid-teen, if it's a big dorm which is supervised all night by adults, and where girls can gather together at one end if they want to (like a homeless shelter I helped out at, where they put up a screeen at one end for the women to have space away from the men if they wanted it), then maybe. Unsupervised rooms or tents? No way.

And you might have survived, but many girls don't. See this article I linked to earlier, on the "epidemic of sexual assaults in our schools".

Ignoring replies because they don't suit you isn't going to be particularly helpful.

What would you do if one of your ds was transgender and wanted to join the guides?

Society will always seem to find a group to want to segregate. I can only imagine that if mumsnet was around in the 40s or 50s, there would have been threads about parents horrified that their children might have to share a room with a black child. Later on, once actually this was completely normalised, it would be a gay child. Now that homophobia is unacceptable, it's moved on to a trans child

I am ignoring any reply which does not centre girls in it.

You come across as a total extremist, OP. Like it or not, your daughters are no more important than other people's sons and daughters. You don't have a right to impose your ideology on others. Remove them from Guides if you want to protect them from imaginary threats.