To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

howling at desperate toilets.

It should be enough to say 'this is for women and girls only' and leave it at that. We shouldn't have to constantly reference periods and penises. It should be enough that something built by women and girls for women and girls stays for women and girls. It shouldn't matter if it's a knitting circle or a scholarship or a football team or a refuge. We should be allowed to have our spaces because we want them, not because we menstruate in them. The fact that we don't say that but constantly talk about the supposed embarrassment of our female bodies instead is very telling.

I'm not saying girls should lead the revolution and be proudly brazen about their bodies and their periods. Wanting privacy is normal. I just don't think we should be forced into the position where we have to justify excluding non-women on the basis of anything other than they are non-women. Not everything has to be inclusive to all the people all of the time. Women know this all to well. It's time the non-women learned it.

Ffs.

I'll be taking dd off the waiting list then. They can fuck off if they have such a stupid attitude to girls safety.

Here's an interesting point from inspection report at HMP Whatton Sex Offenders Prison

"Whatton currently has 12 transgender prisoners living 'in role'.
They have access to the female and male canteen lists and can
access catalogues selling female clothing and cosmetics. Some of
the transgender prisoners have been referred to the Nottingham
Gender Clinic. The number of transgender prisoners at Whatton is
expected to increase and all such prisoners report they feel 'safe'
at Whatton."

So they get £25/week to spend on makeup and clothes, they get to wear their own clothes while the men have to wear grey tracksuits, they get to visit external clinics, and they are perfectly safe in a male prison.

The solution they have come up with, by the way, after complaints from HM Inspectorate of Prisons, is to allow the men not to wear uniforms either (there are no uniforms in UK women's prisons, so that is not an option).

My very similar aged ds and dd attended Cubs/Scouts and Guides, but in Canada rather than the UK so some differences due to that I expect. As groups are heavily influenced by their local leadership the groups were quite different in nature, and some of that difference was quite stereotypically gendered. ds's group was informal with lots of outdoor and sports activity on a regular basis and more camping trips. dd's group was much more formal (way more H&S for example) and participated in some great all guides trips and camps. The weekly activities were very strongly craft orientated and had (to my taste) way to much pageanty type stuff (talent shows etc). Where they were very strong was 'girl empowerment' for example they had an excellent session on what to do if you encountered 'creepy men' (dd's description). I think that this is part of the Guides mandate, it's an all girls movement for a reason.

Just watching this, it's fascinating.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b088kxbw/transgender-kids-who-knows-best

averylongtimeago "When asked, and there have been many surveys over the years, girls have overwhelming said they prefer to have the safe girl only space guiding offers."

I do wonder what members were asked about trans issues. I (a mum to a girl guide) was not asked.

"As for trans girls, I would hope that should the situation arise, we could deal with it in a,sympathetic manner." synthetic to whom?

You can access so much counselling and then you need to decide whether to allow blockers and hormones. If you allow it then you continue getting help. If you don't allow it you are dropped. No help, no counselling, nothing, but with a child who is still struggling a huge amount.

This is frightening. Isn't body dysmorphia classed as mental illness?

Would you all be happily chemically altering your DD or DS because of the way they feel?

I really don't know where I sit with this.

Welsh It's awful. Gender identity disorder is now treated with the 'cure' of blockers, hormones and surgery. If you don't want the 'cure' there's nothing more they can do.

It's not surprising to me that so many parents do choose that route, it's so hard to see your child in so much pain and all you want to do is take it away.

Italiangreyhound, here is a link to the latest survey : www.girlguiding.org.uk/social-action-advocacy-and-campaigns/research/girls-attitudes-survey/

There are some interesting, and often depressing findings from the annual survey. Incidentally, it's a membership survey of opinions, not a parental one. Girls say overwhelmingly that they experience everyday sexism, that they don't like gender stereotypes and want equality for all.

In answer to other questions about how I and the rest of our leadership team in our unit would "manage" a trans girl, I don't know. I would hope we could be kind and inclusive to a child, while at the same time respecting the rights of the other children. I think if you read the posts upthread from fishslice about her child, I would hope we would be fair - but tbh it's a minefield.
As for an adult trans woman as a leader, well the normal safeguarding rules would apply as they do to all leaders and helpers. Leaders do not sleep in the same room/tent as girls on residentials, we shower seperatly and the like. We normally choose what sort of sleeping arrangement we want, I share a tent with my adult DD, another leader prefers her own tent.
I presume that a "reasonable" trans woman would fit in with that, what I would do if one of the more extreme sort we hear about turned up? I guess there would be lots of complaints from the parents and it would be very difficult.

@pawnofthepatriarchy. The best site is mumsnet! I get angry, come on here, have a good rant. Read what other people's who are not living with the issue think, be it academic or emotive, and trying to explain my situation really helps me to clarify my thoughts. Without the influence of other people telling me how I should feel. I feel better after the rant yesterday!

My husband had a breakdown, he spiralled down a rabbit hole of porn led transvestite stuff, he treated me really badly, and he was egged on by his online community and the councillors we saw.
Post pink fog (official term there) it's better, he is saying all the right stuff, but I am not to naive anymore to believe him. We have been living amicably for the last couple of months, everything I want to say has been said, he knows my boundaries. If he treats me badly again I will unleash hell on his world. I will stay (for now) because I think it's the right thing to do.

Long and interesting thread, I won't comment on the issue as not sure, but wanted to reply to itsallgoingtobefine about genetics vs. genitalia of the foetus, yes XX codes for a girl and XY codes for a boy however if the foetus develops without receiving male hormones (for example in case of problem with testosteron receptors) it will develop female genitalia/as a female (although in case of the receptors problem she didn't have her periods). It's the case of Y causing production of testosterone then causing foetus to develop male organs. In absence of this, females organs are developed by default.

Thanks gym

Another one confirming that the facebook post was bollocks

They are obviously being told that its hormones in the womb by someone

A genetically male fetus will therefore de­velop the female form of sexual organs until ‘maleness’ is switched on by the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, and the fetal testis starts to develop and then produce testosterone.

I used to work for GGA and I admit I'm clutching my pearls at this. The policy will have been subject to a lot of discussion over a long time period and I'm just really surprised that gender has trumped sex.
GGA has groups which only exist because they are girls only [cultural/religious reasons]. GGA prides itself on being single sex. I'm just so flummoxed.

Letting your DD share intimate space with a transgirl may be one of those things that sound better in theory. Meet Lila Perry, an American high school student. Lila had grown up in the small town and would have been familiar to her classmates from previous years. Yet 150 girl students walked out in protest at Lila being allowed access to their intimate space. I wonder why?

Women and girls should not give up their rights to safety, privacy and dignity to males, however they identify.

Glad you posted that prawn. I was thinking about 'Lila' myself.

Did you ever see the short video of him walking towards the cameras in a flimsy skirt with clearly no underwear and his penis flapping visibly about?

No disphoria there but a fair bit of unpleasant enjoyment of the girls' discomfort.

That's exactly the sort of transgirl I don't want to share female sex segregated facilities with, and anyone who says I should do can fuck the fuck off. The whole story makes me so angry, the pandering to Lila while casually dismissing the young girls as bigots.

What a great message to send, that their feelings, dignity and comfort are worth shit-all.

m.imgur.com/gallery/rtokvFZ

Oh Hairy, you're such a nasty twaawnzphobe. Don't you realise it's a girl dick?

The girls have been treated absolutely shamefully in the Lila Perry case. All the adults involved should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

The comments under hairys link..

-Serious question. Don't trans male to female usually make sure they tuck or wear something so the penis doesn't show?
-No some transwomen like themselves with penises just fine. Not all transgenders care to operate on themselves or are ashamed of their sex.
-wait isnt being trans the fact you dont want to be your current sex anymore? or am i lost
-gender =/= sex. Some transgender people live as the opposite gender they were born as, but retain their sex.
-Isn't that just cross dressing

In-fucking-deedy. Trans IMO does not exist without sex dyphoria. The dysphoria is the only bloody thing that would make someone 'trans' surely?! Down the rabbit hole we go...

Never saw anyone even talk about this stuff until the ridiculous push for female penises and such. Its just complete nonsense. I have every sympathy for those with sex-dysphoria, it must be horrendous. Do I think the answer is surgery and hormones? No...in some cases it might help though and people should do whatever they want to make themselves happier tbh. But ask me to accept there is such thing as a lady-dick or that actually changing sex is possible, or that biological sex isn't even a thing, or that males can get pregnant?! Fuck off.

On a serious note y'all realise that we have lost our right to meet in single sex groups? How the fuck do we make things better for the next generation if we cannot even meet up in a single sex group to share our experiences. Imagine telling black men that they couldn't meet up, form groups, fight against racism.

This is an excellent article that sums up how I feel. The comments below are dreadful though, the article has made one transwoman so cross that he says he wants to go into a women's loo and kick a young girl in the vagina.