To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

Wanking

If he comes out as a lesbian, would that knock any accusation of perving on its head?

Westminster only mixed in 6th form (still!)
Apologies to everyone for derailing.

Arghh no - have looked into it and it's only co-ed in 6th form. I'm very sorry - I didn't grow up here and I met my friends when they were already at Westminster - I didn't realise they hadn't been there all the way throughout their secondary school education. I find the UK school system slightly mystifying and feel very foolish

WankingMonkey - that's horrendous. Have you spoken to other parents?

OP: as an ex brownie and guide leader and been on many camps I would tell you to talk with the guide leader instead of complaining on here. For all you know they already have a contingency plan in place for the trans person, and your daughter will be fine, if AF does turn up then she will have the support of her leaders and the pack. If you don't like the plan then pull them out of guiding.

If he comes out as a lesbian, would that knock any accusation of perving on its head?
I don't think I am understanding this?

Mind I don't understand much about lesbian males, tbf.

I'd also like to apologise for the derail, particularly as it was my fault.

Moving on: Why should the OP pull her DD out of guiding Diana? It's an organisation for girls. Why should girls make way for boys who might be - like WankingMonkey has experienced - be using the trans agenda as an opportunity to harass young women?

This is a very bad move by GGA.

My first period started at Guide camp. It came on during the night and by morning I had quite a lot of cleaning up to do. It was very embarrassing trying to deal with it while sharing a tent with 5 other girls. It would have been so much worse if I had been sharing with a male person, however they identified.

It makes me so sad that there are so few female only groups left (actually, are there any?). They're important for all the reasons posters have articulated up-thread. Even if they weren't important for women & girls' wellbeing and personal development, just wanting female only groups should be respected. Article 11 of the Human Rights Act is worth a look:

Freedom of association

Everyone has the right to freedom of association with others. This includes the right to form and to join trade unions and to join with others to pursue or advance common causes and interests. It also includes the right to formally join or create associations.

Necessarily included in the right of association is the freedom not to associate with others. There is no right for any individual to join a particular association if other members of the group decide not to include them or to expel them on the basis that their membership was not compatible with the aims and interests of the association.

Fish and Not

Jiggly, no worries at all x

Wankingmonkey, that's horrendous and most frustratingly, so predictable.
Of course the majority of transgirls are going to be careful and discreet in the toilets, but the way the policies and procedures have been set up there is just no scope at all to deal with situations like that.
This sort of thing is the reason why despite it often looking like the TAs are winning, I am confident it is only a matter of time until society sees sense again. It simply isn't possible to sustain the collective delusion that no transwoman has ever committed assault or harassment.
The only question is whether girls will still be seen as acceptable collateral damage once it becomes clear what is happening, I suppose...

Monkey - I hate to say this but- are the local press 'involved'?

No. Honestly throughout this my primary concern (plus that of DSDs mother and of my husband) is that DSD is as comfortable as possible with the batshitcrazyness.

One of the other fathers did originally try to garner public interest and contacted some papers (I do not know which..) but no interest. I suspect its possible the press don't want to have to deal with accusations of transphobia themselves.

Its all going to come crashing down anyday now I am sure. DSD says more and more pupils are standing against the ridiculous decision. Which in turn will be leading to more angry parents. Something has to give.

So, effectively, you can have a person with a penis who declares he's a woman, able to access all women's spaces, including prisons, who can also declare she's a lesbian.

This person with a penis can also pressure lesbians into sleeping with them. As is already happening. Transphobic for lesbians to even exist these days. Sex no longer matters, ''so much focus on genitals is unhealthy' etc etc...though straight men do not get the same pressure (or any pressure) accept transwomen as sexual partners. Nor do transmen feel entitled to gay men or straight womens bodies.... Funny that.

It must vary draylon though it would be interesting to see what effect admitting girls had overall

It made no real difference to our scout group, although that may have been down to the leaders. They did exactly the same activities, they just needed a female leader for camps

It was very much...this is what we are doing

Argh - not 'cis' though!

Most actual girls and women probably do not consider themselves 'cisgender'

I personally don't believe in gender as anything other than a myth, (biological sex is all there is) so to group me (and women like me) by gender is a bit like grouping atheists by the religious denomination you'd like to shoehorn them into.

As a guide leader for over 25 years, can I point out that guides (plus rainbows, brownies and senior section, aged from 5 to 25 as well as adult leaders) do everything that boys can do in beavers, cubs ,scouts ect.
We get outdoors, camp, do backwoods cooking, absail, climb, go canoeing, hike, geocache, play sports you name it, we do it! About the only thing we don't do is shoot at person shaped targets, although rifle shooting or archery using targets is fine (and popular in out group). We also do what you may think of as more "girly" activities: cooking, in fact anything to do with food, is always popular, crafts, (they all seem to hate sewing though), Bollywood dancing went down a storm.
We are "girl led" in that the girls have a big part in planning what they want to do, and as leaders we suggest things they might not have thought of.

Men can be unit helpers, not leaders. All leaders are female. We are all police checked btw.
At a camp, or indoor residential, leaders do not share sleeping quarters with girls and have desperate toilets and showers where ever possible.

When asked, and there have been many surveys over the years, girls have overwhelming said they prefer to have the safe girl only space guiding offers.

I hope this clears up any misconceptions!

As for trans girls, I would hope that should the situation arise, we could deal with it in a,sympathetic manner.

Women, men, single discrete cubicle for trans or they can use the facilities pertaining to their biological sex. I think that is the only way. They shouldn't be able to sue about othering if they are have dignified provision. Sex-segregated protections should be retained in intimate spaces.

What I would give to make any and all discussion of the mythical 'gender' go away.

Is this how atheists feel in countries with religious governments?

When I said about the cubicle I meant that they would have a choice to use the trans cubicle or use the facilities for their sex.

'do not share sleeping quarters with girls and have desperate toilets and showers where ever possible.'

--Wins the prize for best autocorrect fail of the day!

Ffs! And I thought I had checked it too!

Mind you, desperate is the right word for me first thing in the morning at camp when my tent is miles from the loos!

I don't pretend to understand the gender issue for some people. I'm not wishing to get embroiled in the argument.
I do know, like a previous poster, that as a child I hated being a girl. I hated looking, acting and being expected to conform to the social expectations of being a girl.still do If I had been asked, I would have said I was a boy. I remember even attempting to pee like a boy! If I was that age now it is frightening to think where it could have gone. I also wonder if in 20 years from now there are going to be legal action and compensation claims against parents/health professionals/teachers and so on from young adults who have gone through gender assessments/interventions, When in fact they are just bucking social norms rather than wanting to actually live as another gender, and have been 'allowed' to live their lives in a manor which could cause much distress and confusion. Childrens' perceptions of life are different to adults. There will be a few that will go though their life identifying as another gender but there will be far more that as they grow become more comfortable with themselves. I'm still not 'girly', play a traditionally male sport and rarely wear 'ladies' clothes but I am comfortable as myself, and happily married with 3 adult DC.
I, as an adult became a cub and scout leader with DH at the time when they had the option of including girls. We asked the boys their opinions and overwhelmingly they voted for girls not to be admitted. Even then (early 90s) the girls were being pushed ( to even the balance and therefore correctly) to the fore in every aspect of their lives ..schools had become more feminised, don't forget girls outstrip boys academically..and the system was being re balanced so 'girls' style of learning was being used, arguably, to the detriment of 'boys' style of learning.. although I'm not convinced about that one .and they wanted a place to be 'boyish' without the social pressure to compete with girls. and get away from annoying sisters who could show how useless they could be
Whilst I don't disagree with the idea of male privilege in society I don't think in recent years it is as ingrained as in previous generations. The scouts had falling numbers but when girls were allowed, and troops had to except them, the numbers in our local troops fell even further. OK that is anecdotal and I don't have figures on numbers.
So back to the OP, I get she wants a girls space free of boys and the organisations adaptation of its rules are being designed to fall in line with current thinking and she has a choice of her girls attending or not. As she says though I'm not sure how it falls in line with other aspects of inclusive policy when certain demo graphs prefer a greater level of segregation.

YANBU, at all. Have RTWT and wanted to offer Notwhat some

I'm so sorry you are going through that. I have read a lot about trans widows. I imagine you are in touch with loads of blogs and sites. Which are the best, do you think?