To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

Or if you think that's not a reliable source, pop onto "ask transgender" on Reddit and you'll see with your own eyes how prevalent autogynephilia is.

Your logic is bullshit, as several people have pointed out to you. You haven't a clue.

Caring? Don't make me laugh narcissistic maybe.

Hey I said very clearly and specifically indeed up thread that 'staring' isn't okay and should and can be reported by either girls or women regardless of the gender of the person staring.

Don't pretend that I didn't because it is there in black and white.

Morphene

Just look online. Please. There are reams and reams of this stuff. The very people who angrily, vociferously and actively campaign for access, are the very ones who should not have it. And make no mistake, they will use that free pass with enthusiasm. And It is genuine trans-people, women and girls who will suffer.

Morphene can I ask you if you think trans people should have their own places for trans people to meet?

I do.

I don't think for a second that that should mean other places are not safe.

All places should be safe for all people, women, men, trans people, black people, white people, lesbians, bi and gay people.... you know what I mean.

But even though all places should be safe for all people I think that certain groups want to meet on their own, with their own group

Just as some trans woman/girls/men/boys might want to be in a trans only space or a trans women only space.

Just Google 'trans only swimming space'...

Now I, as a non-trans person, have no issue at all with trans people having their own swimming space (or other space) and having their own rules about it.

If there was another club which trans people used but was open to all and they said 'hey we want anyone to join', then I might. I've been to LGBT places without being LGB or T.

But generally I would not be wrong to know a trans only swimming club was for those who were trans. And I would imagine my presence there would be most unwelcome.

There are B and Bs especially for gay people, there are all manner of places and activities for different groups and they are special as they cater to those groups.

We are not talking about leaving men or women or trans men or women out of jobs, education etc, as was once the case for women or non-white people in many places in the past and still is in some countries/areas.

We are talking about a club for certain set of people.

Morphene "... having been on the wrong end of gender segregation (not allowed to join an all male group) and sexism all my life, yes, I not only do not think gender segregation is a good idea, but I also think it should be illegal."

That's what you think, but can you see that your view could hurt other women and girls who do want some female only spaces? As someone up thread said male only clubs were about power, (the old boys network) - I don't support that at all.

Girls or women's only spaces are about safety, (not just physical safety but mental and emotional safety) and privacy; also a chance to challenge some of the views that we are bombarded with.

Most school, workplaces etc do not specify a requirements but a very few will, and if they can say why it is important to do so, then I think it is right to do so.

Woodcraft folk (which I was in as a child) is unisex, so any appropriately-aged child can join a group, or could try and set one up. So there is no need to change an existing female only group.

You're wasting your time, Datun. She doesn't care.

venus so after reading some sites on the internet (and god knows I wouldn't care to be judged on the majority of the shite people post on this site - Im looking at you S&B) you have decided that the idea that TW 'identify as female' is untrue, and that all TW actually 'identify as male' but like to pretend they don't for the purposes of wanking?

It isn't very hard to imagine why people say MN is transphobic is it?

or adult could try and set one up.

venus don't tell me or other people what I do or do not care about.

datun I have at no point denied that there are people causing huge issues here, again I have posted in plain black and white not once but twice to say that transactivists are wrecking it for everyone.

I have no idea why this means I shouldn't point out why I believe TW as a whole (not just the TRA) are unlikely to offend in a similar pattern to men.

It is obvious that several posters here feel incredibly threatened by TRA. I don't know why that should give them the right either to shut down debate, or to shut 10yo out of camping trips.

Some sort of attempt to separate the people who have attacked you or hurt you from the people who are just expressing a different opinion to you, or are trying to allow their kids to go to camp would be very gratefully appreciated.

No, and that isn't what I said and you know it. You accused me of making stuff up, so that's a bit rich.

I don't think all the people who "identify as female" are totally heartfelt, no. I didn't in any way say that they identified as male. They don't need to. They are male, whatever they identify as.

As for "reading some sites on the internet", I expect I've read around the subject a little more than you. Because you are talking out of your arse.

Morphine I am going off to bed now but just think that this thread is about girls, and what is right for them, but we have ended up talking about adult males. I wonder why that is. Night night to all.

No one is trying to shut down debate. They're pointing out the massive gaping holes in your argument.

Morphene

Oh, they definitely identify as female. Their entire psyche is bound up in the idea of being a woman. Unfortunately it's a hyper sexualised version of womanhood. Most of the stuff I have read online refers to the fact that women are weak and victims and it is the idea of a sexual victimhood that is appealing. 'Sissyfying' and being objectified provides a sexual thrill. It's not only promotes gender stereotyping, it promotes the bottom of the barrel of gender stereotyping.

Italian

It's because people disagree with the principal concerned in the OP. The legislation that allows at trans-girl to go to guides, is the exact same legislation that will allow the rest to come out of the Pandoras box.

So true.

Yes, sorry Datun I do understand. I guess it just feels that everything always comes down to what men think/want etc even when we start talking about something else.

I also feel it is hard because I have a lot of sympathy for trans kids and would like to see them better supported, so I find these debates so hard. But I also get frustrated, all children especially pre-teens and teens are under so much pressure these days. Just as trans kids may want a make use of a trans only space so girls may want to make use of a girls only space. Anyway, off to bed. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

italian sorry it is very hard to respond to your interesting thoughtful posts while being screamed at by the apparently increasingly unhinged.

Yes - I can see that a trans only club could be a valuable resource to the trans community.

I think it is different to make a club that treats 50% of the population as a special case that needs looking after.

I can't help but return to the central question of what is lost from either the safety or femininity of the space if Guides accept trans girls?

Girls aren't actually safe from sexual assault in female only spaces so you have to make them safe by positive interference and safe guarding. This will also prevent whatever miniscule additional risk occurs by the addition of trans girls. The space is a female space...free from what? Domineering boys? Over competitiveness? Again, the space is actually only supportive and inclusive of all girls if there is positive action by the leaders to achieve this. Again maybe you have to do a little more, keep a slightly closer eye when you include trans girls, but most likely it makes no difference at all.

As I said several times already, there are plenty of places, education, hospitals, prisons, where the equalities act doesn't apply - in those places you operate under different rules. But in all the places it does apply, I don't think there should be gender segregation.

I hear you, italian. It's a mind fuck on one end of the spectrum, and a desperately heartbreaking narrative on the other. It's all such a mess.

I'm equally frustrated it always ends up being about adult men or TRA for the last dozen posts...I have tried again and again to bring it back to 10yo girls...but to little avail. They probably didn't and wouldn't care, perhaps we should send them this thread to make sure they understand how very afraid they should be of 10 yo trans girls?

datun but it actually is okay to treat different parts of that spectrum differently! The OP could have started a thread about mysogynistic abuse on TRA website and gotten a 100% YANBU. Instead she attacked 10 yo trans girls....go figure.

So I just followed up on the recommendation to check out 'asktransgender' on reddit. Top post is someone describing their sex reassignment (mtf, natch). Check their past posts:

"Does anyone post transition become very competitive with members of their target gender?"

"Ladies and gentlemen and gentle persons! did HRT/ SRS affect your driving skill or ability?

I just realized my parallel park skills took a -20 after SRS. my Xbox buddy along Recovery Lane (yes. she packed an Xbox to Thailand SRS) could not drive her Halo buggy properly either. "

So the post-op transsexual is a misogynist who thinks women can't drive. Quel surprise.

Morph

There won't be a single woman on here that doesn't have compassion for trans-children, or those with gender dysphoria. But it's not the point.

If you didn't see the programme on BBC2 this evening at 9 o'clock about the transing of children, may I politely suggest that you watch it online. This ideology is very damaging for an awful lot of people.

If it is the premise in the OP that is bothering you, okay:

Despite identifying as a girl, that boy statistically stands an 80% chance of not being trans but of being an effeminate homosexual. However a lot of children once they start to socialise as the opposite sex, then go on to have puberty blockers. Despite puberty blockers being technically reversible, almost 100% of those on them, then go on to have cross sex hormones. These hormones will produce secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex. Which are irreversible. He may then choose (or not)to have surgery.

However if he decides at any point, like the vast majority of trans children do, that he is merely gay and not trans he will find himself having to detransition, with potentially horrific consequences.

The words 'I feel as though I am born in the wrong body' is simply not about people's compassion and wanting to be inclusive. It is naive and dangerous do not hold any of this up to the most severe scrutiny.

Morphine thanks for replying. I will just answer and then I must go to bed so I am not ignoring you but the divan is calling!

girls are not 50% of the population and Girl Guides is for girls aged about (I can't remember) 10-18. So not 50% of even the female population.

And women and girls only need safe spaces because they are being marginalized.

I don't understand your use of 'femininity' here. My daughter is not very feminine at all. She hates skirts, loves trousers and used to be magnificent at climbing trees. I don't send her to Guides to become 'feminine'.

'Safe' doesn't just mean from physical attack. It might be a safe space to explore what being a girl is all about. Just as a trans person may wish to talk about issues specific to being trans in a specific club or activity for trans people.

Plus one very important thing that is lost if you allow any males into a club for females, is the idea of being allowed (by males) to have a club just for females. Just think about that, who is allowing or not allowing us to have a club for only girls, males. That bit of the club has now been controlled by someone else. Partly it is the principle that 'we' or rather 'they' (girls) do not get to decide.

Girls are a lot safe in female only spaces than they are elsewhere. But, I don't want to stop my daughter from mixing with boys. She goes to a mixed/co-ed school, she goes to activities where girls and boys will be present. She has a brother and father, and me!

The only activity in her life that is female only is Girl Guides. Who has the right to take that away? When there is a scouts group in our area which, I believe, takes boys and girls.

You said "The space is a female space...free from what? Domineering boys? Over competitiveness?"

The space is a female space...free from .... males.

Yes, some boys are domineering. The teachers at school certainly spend a lot more time dealing with noise and issues from the boys, so it seems. But even if the boys were as quiet as mice, it doesn't make them girls, or indeed mice!

Why would make you think I want to keep my daughter away from over-competitiveness? Or that being in only female company would ensure that? Girls can be very competitive.

In my area the only other thing that springs to mind is female only swim sessions at the local pool. Is that OK? Or should males be allowed in there too?

"gender segregation" You use the word 'gender' a fair bit. It doesn't really mean that much to me. Some limited sex segregation seems fair enough in a wide variety of situations.

And where women do not want to be segregated by sex there are usually other options - mixed sex schools, mixed sex clubs, toilets that are unisex rooms on their own, general pool times when anyone uses the pool etc.

So women and girls can always choose not to be sex-segregated if they wish to be.

But this argument is clearly not about what women and girls want at all.

For the record I would have huge sympathy for a trans girl wanting to join in activities with girls, but it is not for me to say what other girls will want to do, or what other parents will be happy with. A trans girls would be welcome to a whole bunch of things if I was organizing them. But telling all girls they cannot expect a single-sex environment for any group activities....That's not my place.

Just imagine if girls were trying to shut down trans only spaces. But as far as I know, they are not.

Night Night (again!)