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Original poster

To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

999 replies

Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 09:49

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Datun · 13/01/2017 00:55

Autogynephilia is a strictly male condition. Women simply don't have it.

Morphene · 13/01/2017 00:55

baby the confused child making others uncomfortable could just as easily be a trans boy though....and the rule change hasn't affected that....

However I too am deeply troubled by the transing of children in general. Where gender dysmorphia exists that is one thing, but children who aren't horrified by their bits but 'identify' as the opposite gender being pushed towards decisions that could affect them for life worries me. I feel like adults are creating a lot of additional confusion above that which is totally necessary.

I don't mind gender fluidity as long as we are all in it together! I can't handle the idea of 'I'm gender fluid so today I need to be in an all female space' because surely all female spaces cease to exist automatically once noone is 'all female'?

Hopefully this is a transitionary phase and we all come out the other side having ditched the damaging gender stereotypes that dumped us in this shit hole in the first place.

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2017 00:58

Most of the people defending the transagenda here are massively clueless about the wide swathe of people women are now expected to STFU about. The "lesbians" with cocks who get aroused by thinking of themselves as women and guilt trip young lesbians into sex by implying they are bigoted if they don't want to. Gaslighting on a grand scale.

ArcheryAnnie · 13/01/2017 00:58

the whole 'studies show that trans women offend at the same rate as men' has been shown to be at the very best to be non-significant and outdated.

No it hasn't. Where's your evidence - any scrap of evidence at all - that one group of males is any less likely to offend than the wider group of males of which they are a subset?

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2017 00:59

That's four of us now who have asked that question. Why should we believe transwomen are any less violent than other biological males? Anyone?

Morphene · 13/01/2017 01:01

How is a boy, let alone a trans girl, looking at a girl in a changing room offensive?

Do girls lose a bit of their soul (or worse their modesty) every time a boy looks at them?

Do they lose a bit more every time their gaze rests even momentarily on a penis?

Either this trans child is acting in a threatening way or they aren't. You can't hurt someone by looking at them while in possession of a penis. That just isn't a thing.

Italiangreyhound · 13/01/2017 01:03

Morphene Guides is not 'an overtly christian group'. You are asking what the girls would be losing - the opportunity to be in a female only space.

They would also be learning the lesson that to expect to be able to get together in an organised female only space is not OK, not allowed. Perhaps even that they are being cruel to exclude someone.

Girls already have massive expectations on them to behave in a certain ways, Pander to males and fight for their attention, look and act a certain way etc!

As you yourself have said, and you have also said how you think any trans girl joining the group will behave in this 'demure' way, as you say.

But girls do not need clubs where everyone behaves demurely and reinforces what is expected of girls and women. Girls need some opportunities to be in all girl spaces, if they wish to be. And to learn that they can behave in a wide, wide variety of ways and still be girls.

Datun · 13/01/2017 01:03

Morphene

'damaging gender stereotypes' in my opinion are definitely one of the major reasons for a lot of youngsters being confused. Unfortunately, transactivists are making trans-genderism almost something to aspire to. It is horribly muddying the waters for those children with genuine gender dysphoria.

I was very struck by the young woman in the BBC documentary this evening. Having detransitioned and after a double mastectomy she looked back at her previous self and said I don't know what I was thinking, I was pretty and slim, there was nothing wrong with me. Which is exactly what anorexics say.

ArcheryAnnie · 13/01/2017 01:04

So you don't believe in sex segregation at all, Morphene? And you are happy to enforce that on everyone else, whether they like it or not?

theothercatpurred · 13/01/2017 01:09

@HughJarss What are you afraid of ?

In the context described in the OP, I would be afraid of teen pregnancy, mainly. Isn't that the main reason we separate teenage girls and boys?

I would be scared of this whether my child was girl or the transperson in this scenario.

I think putting teens with functioning penises (whether they identify as girls or boys is irrelevant to the risk IMO) in a room full of girls to sleep overnight is just asking for trouble., don't you?

I remember what we were like as teens! This is not a good idea.

If anyone thinks that transphobic I would like to understand why?!

Morphene · 13/01/2017 01:09

venus because they identify with female stereotypes. Female stereotypes are typically more compassionate, less competitive and certainly less aggressive than male stereotypes.

If you took a group of men and asked them to separate themselves into two groups according to whether they thought they would be more likely to describe themselves as
A) compassionate, demure, sensitive, caring, nurturing
or
B) strong, brave, determined, competitive

would you expect the same rate of violent crime offenders in the two groups?

Do you think the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is more important than the personality type and value system a person has in determining if they will become a criminal?

roseshippy · 13/01/2017 01:10

"How is a boy, let alone a trans girl, looking at a girl in a changing room offensive?
"

This seems like an argument to close down all single-sex groups? I don't understand. The Guides chose to remain single-sex, but now we are told 'how is it offensive' not to be single-sex, and all of these past decisions gets chucked out of the window to please men ?

babyface · 13/01/2017 01:13

Guides is definitely not overtly Christian! We did the religion badge by going to the local Buddhist centre and learning meditation (well, a very simplified version! )

Datun · 13/01/2017 01:14

You can't hurt someone by looking at them while in possession of a penis. That just isn't a thing.

If you fail to see any problem with this, then I'm sorry I can't help you.

A man with autogynephilia will have to do nothing more than wash his hands at a basin to be highly aroused by the fact that he's inside a female only space. And the more uncomfortable he makes you, the better he will feel. It is insidious. It is widespread amongst transvestites and trans-women.

If you are happy for you and young girls to be an inwitting participant, I can assure you, you do not speak for most women.

I'm not suggesting that the youngster in the OP has this. However most autogynephiles start dressing in their mothers clothes or sisters clothes at a young age. It actually makes them very unhappy because it is a source of inner conflict. Sometimes oestrogen can help alleviate the symptoms - if they decide to take it.

Morphene · 13/01/2017 01:14

archery having been on the wrong end of gender segregation (not allowed to join an all male group) and sexism all my life, yes, I not only do not think gender segregation is a good idea, but I also think it should be illegal.

The exception is where that rule would prevent children from being able to access education...and as previously mentioned education is already exempt from our equality laws.

Morphene · 13/01/2017 01:15

oh I hadn't realise guides dropped the religion then. As a Brownie I had to swear allegiance to god and queen or some shit. Apologies if that is outdated.

Italiangreyhound · 13/01/2017 01:16

Morphene "Hopefully this is a transitionary phase and we all come out the other side having ditched the damaging gender stereotypes that dumped us in this shit hole in the first place." I do hope so.

roseshippy · 13/01/2017 01:17

"venus because they identify with female stereotypes. Female stereotypes are typically more compassionate, less competitive and certainly less aggressive than male stereotypes."

What a ridiculous load of nonsense. There is no one single female stereotype. There are female boxers, women who get into fights on Saturday night outside of pubs, etc.

"If you took a group of men and asked them to separate themselves into two groups according to whether they thought they would be more likely to describe themselves as
A) compassionate, demure, sensitive, caring, nurturing
or
B) strong, brave, determined, competitive

would you expect the same rate of violent crime offenders in the two groups?
"
You are presuming that those are the reasons people become trans. You have NO evidence for that whatsoever. There is a lot of evidence that transwomen like wanking in women's clothing, get aroused by having breasts, etc. That doesn't imply, even for a second, that they want to become women to be more 'gentle' and 'nurturing'.

And even if it did, there are still SUBSTANTIAL reasons to believe transwomen commit far more crime than actual women. On the one hand - biological men commit far more crime; transsexuality is associated with multiple indicators of crime - and on the other, you have your completely baseless assertion that men want to become women because they want to be 'nurturing' and 'gentle'

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2017 01:18

Many of the people who claim to "identify with female stereotypes" do not appear in the least compassionate, non competitive or nurturing. Are you familiar with transactivists and how they frequently tell women (never men) to die in a fire or suck their lady dicks? Of this nebulous group of transgender people, some or them have crippling gender dysphoria, which is clearly a mental health condition, some of them are autogynephiles, some of them are confused and some of them are trolling. How to tell the difference? Who can use female sex segregated spaces?

Morphene · 13/01/2017 01:19

datun but somebody could be getting their rocks off on looking at me in passing fully clothed?

If I am unaware of their behaviour I am not hurt by it. If they act to MAKE me uncomfortable on purpose then I can report their behaviour as bullying.

If I find completely normal behaviour makes me uncomfortable, then that it is surely my problem isn't it ?(eg. threads on breastfeeding in public).

Datun · 13/01/2017 01:19

Dear God if you think transactivists are A) compassionate, demure, sensitive, caring, nurturing I suggest you go online for a total of four minutes to see that this is patently bollocks.

venusinscorpio · 13/01/2017 01:21

Men staring at women isn't "completely normal behaviour" and in other situations women would be supported to call it out. But you'd like to gaslight them into thinking that they shouldn't because they're nasty old bigots.

Datun · 13/01/2017 01:25

Sorry Morphene, i'm not sure if you have boxed yourself into a corner or if you are truly okay with grown men wanking off over girls in changing rooms, as long as those girls don't see them do it.

Just check out the site transgender reality. There is no wondering or quessing or half formed opinions. Everything on the site is lifted verbatim from trans-activists own words.

Morphene · 13/01/2017 01:27

"Many" venus ? Are you very sure that isn't a vocal few? According to the stats there should be around 180000 trans people in the UK. How many have you actually received death threats from?

So some trans women are violent...as obviously are some women.

You asked why I wouldn't expect the TW violence offence rate to be the same as it is for men. My answer is because they are a subset of men that ascribe to atypically female mindsets and as it happens those are aligned predominantly with non-violence.

I also wouldn't expect the subset of men with PhD's to have the same level of violent offence as the average, again not zero, but lower than the average.

The point is that whenever you take a subset you don't expect to get the same value for violent offence rate as the average, but you particularly wouldn't when your subset is self-selected for identifying with values that promote caring over competition and consensus seeking over violence.