To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

It means acting within societies expectations of females, doing stereotypically female things such as: being self-deprecating, using closed minimising body language an postures (like crossing your legs when sitting), spending time on primping (make up, hair dos etc), care taking (of friends or family), and the other thousand things that the patriarchy expects of us.

So why would someone who is behaving exactly in the same manner and with the same mannerisms as all the girls, cause a measurable difference in the OP's child's experience to make her all dailymail sad face about her daughter 'missing out on an all female experience'?

As a transgirl of Guide age would not have had any surgery and therefore would look male when changing, I suspect the transgirl will be hiding in the toilets and changing there, not to hide anything for sinister reasons, but to not want to highlight the differences that they hate....if they were to glance at any girl changing, it's more likely to induce a feeling of remorse/despair for their own physical state over a sexual reaction. Seeing a transperson cry over their situation is heartbreaking.

It is a difficult one, but it's not going away so isn't it better for us all to try to work something out rather than create anxiety in another, more vulnerable, person?

It occurred to me writing that, that while I consider myself extremely un-feminine, I have never ever sat done with my knees spread wide in the manner almost all my work colleagues do so naturally....

So I perform femininity more than I realised!

This is about an organization for women of all ages who have chosen to join a 'female only' club so it will affect all ages - the guides, rangers and leaders - so is not just about 10 year olds, it is far more wide ranging than that.

OUr the trans child hasn't made any of these choices. The Guides have made the choice that they are to be welcomed and allowed to participate.

baby maybe, but as was pointed out earlier, to make forward progress in these difficult areas we need to work out what reasonable compromise looks like.

Does reasonable compromise look like people with penises allowed to share dorms with women in shelters recovering from rape? No, it probably doesn't.

Does reasonable compromise look like banning a 10 yo who will do no damage physical or mental to the other 10 yo they are on a camp with, and who will almost certainly neither notice or care if they do notice that they are trans? Again no it probably doesn't.

So if the OP comes and asks "do I have the right to know if someone with a penis is attending the same camp for 10 yos as my daughter" then my answer is no.

No amount of pointing out lots of different situations involving people of different ages, or in prisons or hospitals or refugees is going to make any difference to this specific situation.

Your answer may be no, but you don't speak for everyone.

Poochie

Google Lila Perry.

But we're not just talking about 10yr olds. I would have no problem with a trans adult in a position of leadership in any other setting but I don't feel particularly happy here. Guides has always felt like a safe (not in a sexualized way!!) Female empowered place. And the only transsexual I know was a particularly rambunctious little boy.

Ah - so this thread has debunked two myths for me!

1. the whole 'studies show that trans women offend at the same rate as men' has been shown to be at the very best to be non-significant and outdated.
2. the whole 'intersex is really rare so you don't have to worry about that in these cases' is bollocks too. Current estimate put the trans population at 0.3% and the intersex population at 1.7%. So the incredible rare people who are intersex that aren't considered an issue by most are more than 5 times as common than the extremely concerning trans people that posters seem frightened of being overrun by.

This seems to indicate the problem is one of physical difference being considered fine, while mental difference is considered dangerous....another form of mental health discrimination maybe.

venus I did say 'probably not'....

but if your only argument against a trans girl being allowed on this particular camp is that it isn't okay for women to have to share a prison cell with a penis, then there is something wrong with your argument.

Why do you personally thing a 10 yo trans girl shouldn't attend the OPs camp? What will be lost if they do?

baby same question really, what is being lost from this particular space and its safety or femininity by the addition of trans girls?

It's not about the individual who poses no threat. It's about changing laws to include all other individuals. There was a post on here a few weeks ago from a parent who was distressed because a boy in her daughter's class had identified as a girl and is now allowed to change with the girls. The boy was a known 'groper' and the girls were up in arms, but had absolutely no recourse.

I would feel comfortable on a personal level if any child wanted to join with their friends and everyone was happy. However by making it an official rule the power to make an individual decision is lost. I would hate to lose girls from a minority background whose parents would not be ok with this decision and who get little chance of integrating with their peers in a positive environment outside of school. And let's face it, in a small town there would be no keeping it secret.

datun what do you mean they had no recourse? Surely if you get groped at school you report it and the school take action to sort the problem?

Morphene

Where are the studies that demonstrate that this subset of biological males are less violent than males overall? I'd like to read them. Otherwise I see absolutely no basis for believing that to be the case.

If the boy was a known groper and the school saw fit to let them change with the girls, a young girl is hardly going to be confident any report she makes to the school will be believed or taken seriously, will she? Don't be obtuse. This agenda shits all over the rights to privacy and dignity of women and girls. It is made quite clear to them how unimportant they and their feelings are. At least own it, why don't you?

Morphene

Of course. But now he is right there, in the changing room. He doesn't need to grope anybody to make them all feel highly vulnerable.

These laws make the crimes of voyeurism and indecent exposure cease to exist. If a transgirl is considered a girl, she can act like all the other girls. There is no rule that says she has to cover up her penis, like there is no rule that says the girls have to cover up their genitals. You can't make a law based on the fact that you hope people will be respectful.

baby so it isn't the specifics of 'all female space' that you are defending, but the idea that the space should be comfortable for the children it was aiming to provide support to? So the addition of a bolshy girl who turned everything into a competition and insisted on being in charge of everything (I wrecked a Brownie pack this way back in the day), would be more of a problem than a demure trans girl?

Demure is another great 'performing femininity' word btw....have you EVER heard a man being described as demure?

I do see your point about blanket rules though. I don't know how one would square the discrimination lawsuits if a trans girl tried to join at the same time as a devout muslim who couldn't attend a group with a male. (although it would be strange to join an overtly christian group in this case but roll with it for the sake of argument). Do members of a religion have the ability to impose gender segregation on others? They do in schools....but schools are exempt from the equalities act which makes them rather different.

datun if another girl is staring at you in the shower, pointing or laughing, would this not be bullying or harassing behaviour? Would you not complain? Why shouldn't they complain of offensive behaviour from this trans girl?

If they feel they are losing something just by being seen in a normal 'looking around and happen to see' sort of way, then what are they losing and why?

But if I had to deal with a child who is obviously confused and making other children feel uncomfortable I am not going to have the energy to deal with the bolshie competitive girl - we still have them 😉. I guess I'm a bit cynical about the sudden demand in gender fluidity. I believe that there are genuine cases. But I read a report (Sunday times maybe) about how many transsexuals want a reversal post op. I don't believe 1 ten ur old will change things but I do believe in female spaces for our girls and I'm not comfortable with this rule change

datun why do you say this prevents indecent exposure from existing as a concept? Simply having your penis seen has never been the definition. If my DD sees her Dad's penis when he gets out of the shower it isn't indecent exposure. If I see a penis while getting changed at the swimming pools (communal change area) then it isn't indecent exposure.

If I get followed home from work by a stranger who gets his penis out as a deliberate attempt to intimidate or distress me, then THAT is indecent exposure.

If the trans girl were to corner a child and shove their penis in their face then they will still be just as guilty of indecent exposure as previously.

How is one girl looking at another girl in a changing room offensive? There doesn't have to be pointing and laughing or bullying. It is getting increasingly hard to name the problem, much less complain about it.

Genuine trans-people with sex dysphoria just want to get on with their lives in peace. Unfortunately for them, and women and children, there are far too many trans-people with different motives, who will be included in the legislation.

Most adult transwomen retain their genitalia. About 70% remain attracted to women. A large percentage have autogynephilia.

It is no longer about being inclusive and having compassion for people with gender dysphoria. It has gone way beyond that.

"the whole 'studies show that trans women offend at the same rate as men' has been shown to be at the very best to be non-significant and outdated."

??? Except there is no reason to believe that trans women DON'T offend at the same rate as men, or higher.

A study (www.jaapl.org/content/16/2/153.full.pdf) showed that transvestism is associated with paedophilia, rape and exhibtionism. Also transsexuality is linked to mental illnesses such as depression, which has a proven correlation with violent crime.

There is simply NO REASON to believe that a transwoman is the same as a biological woman. The average biological woman does not have mental disorders, a (claimed) 45% suicide risk, etc. It's just ridiculous to think the criminality would be the same.

"intersex population at 1.7%. "

Where do you get your fake statistics from?

The Intersex Society says the number is 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births requiring some sort of sex differentiation, with 1 in 1666 not XX or not XY. That's just 0.05%.

To get to 1.7 % you need to use figure for 'Late onset adrenal hyperplasia'

which means

"premature development of pubic hair, irregular menstrual periods, hirsutism (unwanted body hair), or severe acne. About 10-15% of these young women may suffer from fertility problems. Some people affected with nonclassical CAH are not at all symptomatic, and are identified only because of an affected relative."