To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

If "she" does not want to invade safe spaces, then why does "she" do exactly that? Can you explain that?

she is a fucking CHILD and she won't understands what rape /refuge centres and women sacred spaces are FFS

and breathe..and hide thread afuckinggain

she is a fucking CHILD and she won't understands what rape /refuge centres and women sacred spaces are FFS

Children in their teens are perfectly aware of what rape is and refuges

Satan what makes my 9 yo DD a girl?
What if you are makes you a women?

Why do I not take into account the needs of girls, because I'm not hysterical?

This is all i need to know about you, Satansbanana - your complete lack of empathy for anyone who might have a good reason for wanting to maintain girl-only spaces and women-only spaces, and your painting any woman who thinks the occasional penis-free space is a good idea as "hysterical"

AVirginLitTheCandle Preferring to see a woman rather than a transwoman is perfectly reasonable and not transphobic - likewise preferring a female midwife to a male one...

But in those situations we just say "No thank you, I'll wait for a woman". Or re-book. I'm confused by all the inflammatory bombastic talk of transfemales doing invasions and forcing themselves into 'women's spaces' ?!

'She's not a girl'. That's pretty much the definition of trans.

Pretty hacked off that just so long as we are not actually being abused we have to welcome men to everything. Why can't we meet in all female groups? It completely ignores our needs as an oppressed class Women - know your place - at the back with restricted view.

she is a fucking CHILD and she won't understands what rape /refuge centres and women sacred spaces are FFS

What? At 10? Then you need to teach this kid what they do mean, not encourage them in their ignorance to invade girls' spaces.

I do wonder if other parts of Girl Guiding world wide have the same rules. What I think is shocking is that the article suggest parents and girls would not be informed about these changes,. I do not mean about any individual children but about the general policy change.

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers "This may be a very simplistic way of looking at it, but in my child's case it isn't about a vague feeling inside, it's a very real form of body dysmorphia that we can no longer get non invasive help for."

This is so sad, by 'no longer get non invasive help' do you mean counselling is no longer available? I have heard something similar elsewhere and it just seems so unfair. Surely, providing counselling and help that is non invasive keeps children's options open for longer and probably costs less than expensive medications (please correct me, I could be wrong). This is so sad.

"Sadly the lines of what being transgender actually means are getting very seriously blurred (thanks to transactivists) and everyone is getting trampled on in the process"

I so agree with this. Everyone is getting trampled. I don't want individual trans kids (or adults) trampled in this stampede but I also want girls and women to have their concerns taken seriously. I wish there were organisations that built bridges and made things better. I've not heard of one yet. Is there any such organisation.

Satan There has to be give and take.

My child has been living as transgender for years now.

We have made compromises for the sake of other children and also the safety and wellbeing of my child.

Where I think this hypothetical child should be allowed to join guides, and would fight for their right to do that, the child would also have to make some compromise and have separate sleeping and showering arrangements.

My child has recently gained 'rights' to basically do what the hell they want and fuck everyone else and how they feel, we choose not to use these new found rights because, as part of society, the wants and needs of one shouldn't trump the wants and needs of others. Surely being considerate of others is a great thing to teach your kids.

Stop so if this 10 yo child is allowed in to females private spaces now while still having their penis dont you think that they will then when an adult feel they have the right to enter all female spaces including rape crisis units and womens refuge?

"No thank you, I'll wait for a woman".

user892 that could only happen if you were ok with massive shenanigans, being told you "think like a rapist" (which is what one trans ally told a rape survivor, to huge applause, on twitter, when that rape survivor had written about wanting a woman counsellor), being banned from the service, etc etc. Which is obviously what you need to deal with when you are totally traumatised from your rape.

You don't seem to believe all this stuff happens. Maybe you need to take a look around.

they are 10 to 14, many wont. anyway . arguing is futile!

You can't say 'no thank you, I'll wait until a ward without transwomen flashing their dicks comes free' before you get admitted to hospital though, whether you're there voluntarily or not.

Preferring to see a woman rather than a transwoman is perfectly reasonable and not transphobic

Plenty of trans activists would disagree with you there user.

According to trans activists, trans women are no different to cis any other woman therefore refusing to see a trans women is not only entirely unreasonable but trans phobic and bigoted.

These are the same people that have accused lesbians of being transphobic for not wanting to have sex with a transwoman after all...

But in those situations we just say "No thank you, I'll wait for a woman"

And then they'd reply "But I am a woman. So what's the problem?".

I'm confused by all the inflammatory bombastic talk of transfemales doing invasions and forcing themselves into 'women's spaces' ?!

So demanding access to female only spaces like rape crisis centres and womens refuges instead of campaigning for their own is not forcing themselves into women's spaces? Okay then .

(And Fish, thank you. I wish your attitude was more widespread. I still don't agree on trans girls joining guides - because there are alternatives - but I respect your approach, even as I disagree.)

Countess

And for our society to on the one hand to blame women for their victimisation but at the same time tell them they should be absolutely fine being in a vulnerable space with a male because he identifies as a woman or else they are bigoted is quite simply gaslighting.

It's not a perfect analogy I know, but it's not like there is a certain level that if the proportion of black crime rises to, suddenly it makes racism to any random black person OK. It's the principle of the thing.

And I absolutely DO NOT blame women for their victimisation! The blame for any abuse always lies with the abuser, be they male, female, trans or whatever. I can't be expected to frame my views and expression of them based on what the worst of society's conventions are (e.g. victim blaming). I do not blame women for their victimisation, therefore I am not 'gaslighting' if I advocate treating individuals as individuals rather than stereotyping them for characteristics they cannot help, e.g. the presence or former presence of a penis, skin colour etc.

If boys feel like girls, they can camp with boys & girls at cubs. There is no other girl only space for my child.

Admitting boys to guides, tells girls, that women's only space has no value. That it is more important to accommodate the feeling of one boy than the feelings of 30 girls. That girls will have no space to discuss their biology, as it will upset a boy. That girls can nor choose in front of whom to get undressed or sleep in the same space, even if it upsets them.
Etc etc.

Why remove the best thing about guides, the escape from the male gaze and the enjoyment of a girl only space. Something even one male bodied child will remove however well he performs.

*they are 10 to 14, many wont. anyway . arguing is futile!

They're up to age 17.

Do you believe privilege exists, lelapaletute? Because people born with penises are privileged in this world over people born with vaginas, however they identify. If you don't recognise that, then no wonder you are politically at the point you are (and moreover making dodgy racial analogies which don't recognise the direction of power).

I can't believe that some people are suggested segregating children until they've gone through traumatic operations. How utterly horrific can you get?!

So what's the answer? To a transwoman who has just been assaulted and needs to access a rape crisis centre right now - what should she do? Should she go? Or not go?

If she goes, is there anything she can do to avoid causing pain to cis women who may also be there?

A woman's rape crisis, I mean

I can't believe that some people are suggested segregating children until they've gone through traumatic operations. How utterly horrific can you get?!

No one is suggesting that at all FFS.

Pretty sure all the gender-crit women on here are against any children having SRS, wictional. So what on earth are you talking about?

"No thank you, I'll wait for a woman".

I thought they were women?

But seriously, you are talking about an activist group who are trying to close down a library, who get people no platformed, who send death and rape threats, who celebrated the murder of a lesbian couple and their son by a trans-activist, who call lesbians 'cisbians' and 'vagina fetishists' for excluding men from their dating pool, who assault women who won't sleep with them for committing the act of violence of saying 'no', who shut down womens groups for making vagina cupcakes, who take women's places on sports teams. #NotAllTrans, obviously, but we aren't talking fringe here.

You might get a lovely hcp who says 'of course, we'll book you in with someone else' or you might not. Either way, if anyone finds out then you are cis scum who should die in a fire. And what a fucking palaver. You book an appointment, ask for a woman, get there and have to tell someone TO THEIR FACE that they don't pass, book another appointment.