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Original poster

To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

999 replies

Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 09:49

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
midcenturymodern · 12/01/2017 16:04

I don't think the bisexual argument stacks up at all. People aren't saying trans people don't exist. They are saying trans women are trans women and that is a separate thing from being a woman.
I'm a bisexual women. I don't go around insisting everyone call me a lesbian, join lesbian only sports teams, win scholarships set up for lesbian women because I'm not a lesbian. I'm bisexual. I've suffered my fair share of biphobia but my 'oppression' don't give me the right to infiltrate another group from which I am excluded.

I think that to claim it doesn't matter what gender a person identifies with, what their pronouns are and what is in their pants ignores the hierarchical nature of gender. It allows men to 'identify' down but it doesn't allow women to 'identify' up.

user892 · 12/01/2017 16:06

It's a really interesting viewpoint and obviously has happened. We just don't know how likely this is though, within the whole population of transgender women

I don't know why my quote was used above by Atenco. It was specifically in reference to the likelihood of being sexually attacked by a transwoman - NOT the likelihood of transwomen using female-only services and making women feel uncomfortable.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/01/2017 16:10

Lela, I am really uncomfortable with your analogy of black and white crime rates to male and female sexual violence. I am not au fait with the figures for crime rates for different races, but firstly, I would guess that it would wholly or mostly disappear when you controlled for poverty and related factors, and secondly I can't believe it has ever been anything approaching the scale of the difference between male and female sexual violence rates - it will never have been the case that hardly any crime is committed against whites by other whites, but it is the case that the vast majority of sexual violence against women is committed by men. Avoiding people of different races as a way of avoiding being a victim of crime is a hell of a lot less rational as a strategy than avoiding being in vulnerable positions with men.
And for our society to on the one hand to blame women for their victimisation but at the same time tell them they should be absolutely fine being in a vulnerable space with a male because he identifies as a woman or else they are bigoted is quite simply gaslighting.

user892 · 12/01/2017 16:10

Oh sorry re Danielle Muscato - was doing 10 different things at once and thought she was someone else. Humblest apols.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 16:26

And for our society to on the one hand to blame women for their victimisation but at the same time tell them they should be absolutely fine being in a vulnerable space with a male because he identifies as a woman or else they are bigoted is quite simply gaslighting.

TheCountess this, thank you for articulating it.

JanuaryMoods · 12/01/2017 16:29

don't know if this helps, but I think you are maybe not taking into account the horrific levels of discrimination, threat and outright violence that transwomen face every day.

And maybe you should take into account the horrific levels of discrimination, threat and outright violence that women face every day.

Let's not make it harder for women by handing over their safe spaces, eh?

ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 16:32

And BraveDancing again - i am sorry I didn't report to the second half of your post. I am sorry to hear that you and your gf were attacked, but I am pretty confident that it wasn't radical feminists who attacked you, or indeed anyone who would listen to what radical feminists thought.

(I have been attacked in the street holding hands with a woman, but it was quite a long time ago, and in a suprisingly naice part of town, too.)

BraveDancing · 12/01/2017 16:33

Oh for heaven's sake! Oppression Olympics here we go!

It isn't denying that women face problems too to say that it isn't all about these mean old trans women taking space because they can.

Both women and trans women face huge oppression, largely not from each other, but let's focus on squabbling over the crumbs rather than address the actual huge systemic problems that hurt us both. Yay! What a win-win solution!

Satansbanana · 12/01/2017 16:40

What I am trying to understand is what harm do people think a 10 year old trans girl is going to do if she goes on the camping trip?

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 12/01/2017 16:41

Brave I never saw a thread on here about trans women and women only spaces 2 years ago. It wasn't an issue then at all.

The problem is that transactivists have completely redefined what it means to be transgender and, quite rightly, women don't want a bloke to decide he is a female 30 seconds beforehand and then go into a female changing room insisting he is a woman because he said so.

It isn't the genuine transgender people who are going through counselling, hormones and surgery that the majority of people have issue with. It's the people who have no intention of changing at all and want to use the rights the activists have got them to access female only spaces and flip from being male to female whenever it suits them.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 16:42

Both women and trans women face huge oppression, largely not from each other, but let's focus on squabbling over the crumbs rather than address the actual huge systemic problems that hurt us both. Yay! What a win-win solution!

Women aren't trying to take space, resources or anything else from trans people. Trans activists are trying to take those things and more from women. The women's activism I've been part of has been trying to address the "huge systematic problems that hurt us both", but keeps on being derailed by having to fight like hell to hang on to the women's rights, resources and space we thought we had already won, because people with male bodies are trying to steal them. I don't want to have to fight for the crumbs I have, but by god I will if I'm made to. And I am being made to.

But by all means, blame women for trying to hang onto what they built.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 16:44

Satansbanana at the very least it's telling the girls there that they have no right to female-only space, and that being a girl is just a feeling and not a reality. This they will be expected to carry throughout their whole lives, to their detriment.

wictional · 12/01/2017 16:47

If your DDs want privacy from other women then they should tell the leaders they want separate tents. Tbqh you're being quite bigoted and transphobic.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 16:52

Where exactly is the bigotry and transphobia, wictional?

AVirginLitTheCandle · 12/01/2017 17:02

If your DDs want privacy from other women then they should tell the leaders they want separate tents.

But if they dared to do that then they'd be labelled a bigot and a transphobe just like what you've done here: Tbqh you're being quite bigoted and transphobic.

I don't want to get changed in front of someone who is clearly a bloke and making no effort to hide that fact. If that makes me a bigot and transphobe then so be it.

Satansbanana · 12/01/2017 17:06

I just wish all those so vehemently against this trans child could just take a step back and put yourself in her shoes and in her parents shoes. She doesn't want to invade your DD's safe spaces, she just wants to feel normal.

titchy · 12/01/2017 17:06

What I am trying to understand is what harm do people think a 10 year old trans girl is going to do

It isn't 'just' a 10 year old. It's also a 17 year old.

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 12/01/2017 17:08

Please stop throwing accusations of transphobia around.

People are justifiably worried and expressing that, calling someone transphobic for simply worrying about the impact something will have on there children diminishes what actual transphobia is.

VestalVirgin · 12/01/2017 17:12

If your DDs want privacy from other women then they should tell the leaders they want separate tents. Tbqh you're being quite bigoted and transphobic.

Stop being ridiculous, please. Men are not women, and you know it. Everyone does. I bet you never wondered how couples know whether they have to use contraception to avoid pregnancy.

You know that women want privacy from males, not from other women.

Say it as it is: You do not want women and girls to have privacy from males. That is what you mean, so do not attempt to hide it. Everyone will see through it, be assured.

VestalVirgin · 12/01/2017 17:15

This reply has been deleted

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ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 17:16

I just wish all those so vehemently against this trans child could just take a step back and put yourself in her shoes and in her parents shoes. She doesn't want to invade your DD's safe spaces, she just wants to feel normal.

I'm not "against this trans child" at all, I am just in favour of protecting space for girls (which, whether you like it or not, a kid with a male body will be invading). You don't seem to take into account the needs of girls at all, Satansbanana.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 12/01/2017 17:17

Some places need to be sex segregated. Rape crisis centres and refuges come to mind.

I'm not sure if anyone else feels the same but I know that I find it easier to talk about certain things with women and feel more comfortable being with women in certain situations.

When I have counselling I will only ever talk to female counsellors. It's not because I don't think there are male counsellors out there who are good at their jobs or because I don't trust men. It's because some of the things I want to talk about like being sexually assaulted are just easier to talk to a woman about. I don't want to speak to a trans woman about these things given they are biologically male and have very likely been socialised as a male.

I don't want to show up to a rape crisis centre one day expecting to see a female counsellor only to be presented with a man who 'feels' like a woman.

I don't want to request a female HCP for an intimate exam only to then be presented with a man who feels like he was born in the wrong body and is a woman really.

According to trans activists however all of these things are transphobic and they mean that I'm an intolerant bigot Angry.

Satansbanana · 12/01/2017 17:21

'She' is not invading anything, 'she' is a girl. Why do I not take into account the needs of girls, because I'm not hysterical? Because I don't believe that if you have a penis you are automatically capable of abuse or oppression.

AVirginLitTheCandle · 12/01/2017 17:24

'she' is a girl.

Nope. She's a trans girl.

Because I don't believe that if you have a penis you are automatically capable of abuse or oppression.

Why do I get the feeling that you've completely missed the point?

titchy · 12/01/2017 17:24

If you have a penis you're not capable of being female either.