To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

If someone is attacked at a woman-only group, service, DV refuge, rape crisis centre etc by anyone - of course I care about their pain... why wouldn't I?

One tends to assume that those who care about women's pain will not cause them additional pain by forcing them to share spaces with males. Regardless of what those males identify as.

Lela, I don't know if the display was sexually aggressive or just careless, but the former is not exactly uncommon and in a context where women are routinely not believed about sexual harassment, it's a bit of a problem for women victims of such that the likelihood is that the aggressor would be believed if they said 'oh, it was just an accident'. So it's a bit of a shitty position to put any woman in let alone one who has been sectioned into a mental hospital and is therefore effectively trapped with this penis, sexual motivation or not.
I know that you think they're just penises and we shouldn’t be so uptight as to be more upset by that than a vulva, but given the prevalence of male sexual violence it's not really surprising if women DO find it more upsetting even when the penis owner isn't doing anything with it.
Sort out male sexual violence and aggression (society rather than you personally, obviously...) and THEN it might be feasible to create a world where we are all equally chilled about being in confined spaces with penises as with vulvas. Until then I don't think implicitly blaming women for being so uncool as to mind is going to help much.

Those of you who believe so strongly on this thread that men and boys who call themselves women and girls really are women and girls and should be treated as their chosen sex and allowed in to female spaces will you please answer me this......what do you think of Daniel Muscato? Do you believe she should be allowed in female only spaces because she states she is a women?

Just completely to clarify, without addressing anyone particularly:

I used to take a very, very second wave approach to trans issues. I actually decided to write my dissertation on feminism and trans issues, with a view to demonstrating via feminist theory and practice that trans women were not trans at all, but gender-non-conforming men who, due to the rigidity of patriarchal gender assumptions, felt they had no way to express their non-conformity but to mutilate their bodies and pantomime as stereotypical women, and that only feminism could save these poor chaps from themselves and allow them to explore their real natures and accept theose natures within their natural bodies. I was idealistic, and well meaning, and utterly, utterly patronising and wrong-headed.

I read masses of theory and accounts and research, starting with Janice Raymond, being faintly appalled by her vitriol and inconsistency (I'd been expecting her to be the cornerstone of my argument!), and moving through a 360 degree point of view change via intersex conditions, trans theory and accounts, and just a basic consideration of what it must be like to spend your whole life being told by everyone - society, your family, the medical profession, and then feminism - that you are wrong, wrong, wrong, not welcome here, there or anywhere as you feel you are. Having to fake male gender conformity to avoid being beaten and murdered; then having to fake female gender conformity to the medical profession to qualify under the incredibly rigid terms of that profession as sick and in need of help to get the treatment (hormones, counselling, surgery) that you need. Never being allowed to simply BE, to be taken at your word, and allowed to flourish without fear. Basically, I got some perspective, and found my empathy.

I was never convinced by the scientific arguments about brain types, psychiatric disorders, hormone imbalances etc, as no one theory stacked up entirely to explain trans, any more than any one unifying theory has emerged to 'explain' homosexuality. And I came to the conclusion the why of being trans was less important than the 'why is it a problem?" question. And this is where, finally, my feminism and my newly minted trans-allyhood met in the middle again. It shouldn't matter what people wear, what pronoun they use, what their interests and predispositions are, or what is in their pants. All these things may matter enormously to the individual, and their conception of themselves and their identity. But they are of no concern to anybody else. Or they shouldn't be, if what we believe as feminists - that being a woman should have no bearing on what we can do, where we can go, and who we should be - is true. In this less than perfect world, compromise and courtesy on all sides are the way forward. Fortunately, if you look at it, the interests of trans rights and the interests of women's rights intersect at numerous points. We don't all have to agree with each other - just respect each other.

Overall, in relation to this thread, I just really feel for any trans child, who is already going through it in this imperfect and not always tolerant society, whether this is their true identity or 'just a phase', being made to feel even more bizarre and unwanted and sick and dangerous by adults who ought to know better.

Oh wow - so there's a whole load of sexist transwomen kicking women out and pissing all over their safe spaces? Had no idea. What happens when this harassment occurs? Presumably groups have guidelines in which the safe spaces can be kept safe? If someone is kicking off, assaulting someone or being rude?

I have seen genuine transphobia.

I don't see it on this thread and it's not doing anybody any good to shout transphobia every time someone offers an opinion that isn't 100% in favour of the rights of trans people. It belittles what genuine transphobia is.

The fact is, as it stands, the rights of transgender people are coming way ahead of the rights of women.

The fact also is that, whereas once upon a time transgender was pretty clearly defined, it no longer is, that's what people are worried about.

My child is transgender neither my child or I think that their rights should come before those of anyone else.

There are ways to compromise, which we had been doing for years, with nobody noticing at all and being respectful of the rights of everyone.

There needs to be a compromise on both sides, but the trans activists are campaigning for such extremes that others fight back with equally extreme views from the opposing side.

There is middle ground there that nobody seems to be campaigning for.

Nobody is winning apart from the trans activists at the moment. It's very sad and frustrating.

Exactly, Vestal. What will happen in practice is that women just won't use refuges that are open to people with male bodies - why jump from the frying pan into the fire? And since there is little enough provision as it is, there's nowhere left for them to turn.

(And of course it was horrible second-wavers who fought and fought for these services in the first place, those eeeeevil women.)

Wow - so the entry test for Guide's shouldn't only include a genital inspection, but some sort of sci-fi based test for future child bearing capacity also?

I was watching The Man in the High Castle last night...there was discussion of women's ability to bear children as a primary indicator of their suitability to apply for asylum.

It just isn't true that all possessors of a vulva and child bearing capacity have more in common with each other than they do with those without.

I doubt all people who identify as female have more in common with each other than with those who don't either...but it is a better bet than basing it on sex organs, particularly in the case of children who you would have to hope aren't going to be using theirs at Guide camp.

Lela I think this is the same issue as the one I was discussing with Morphene earlier really: ultimately we would like the same thing, an equal world where we can all just be people, but we disagree on how to get there. I think until we are there, women's spaces and privacy are important. You think (if I am reading you correctly) that the existence of those spaces is a roadblock to achieving the aim.

*There needs to be a compromise on both sides, but the trans activists are campaigning for such extremes that others fight back with equally extreme views from the opposing side.

There is middle ground there that nobody seems to be campaigning for.*

Peace out x

I think this thread has more middle grounders on it than any other I have seen recently.

There isn't enough of this out there!

I used to take a very, very second wave approach to trans issues.

I have had the exact opposite journey lelapaletute. Trans women were my spiritual siblings in the LGBT movement, and we fought shoulder to shoulder against all the shit we were up against. Trans women would have no more thought about gatecrashing women's spaces than they would have claimed they were biologically female.

Then trans activism happened, started painting women as the oppressors (and lesbians in particular), started demanding to be put front and centre into women's activism, started trashing and/or stealing everything women had fought for for so long, and I changed my mind.

Never being allowed to simply BE, to be taken at your word, and allowed to flourish without fear.

This is exactly where I fear girls and women are at in the present climate, lelapaletute.

Countess

Sort out male sexual violence and aggression (society rather than you personally, obviously...) and THEN it might be feasible to create a world where we are all equally chilled about being in confined spaces with penises as with vulvas. Until then I don't think implicitly blaming women for being so uncool as to mind is going to help much.

I see your point, I do. But to be fair, society changes as attitudes change. We can't say we'll only stop stereotyping men as potentially sexually violent when NO men are sexually violent (or at a similar level with sexually violent women), because that means the terms of our progress are being dictated by the perpetrators of violence! It's like men saying women are all gold-digging slappers who don't like sex because some women are upfront about their desire to 'marry up' and their expectation for their husbands to financially support them, and who talk about sex in terms of 'reward' for gifts or good behaviour. We have to try, in spite of conditioning, to treat individuals as individuals, not as potentially the worst stereotypes of their gender. You could as easily say "Society should sort out black crime, and THEN it might be feasible for white people to be cool with people of colour moving next door to them."

I'm not saying ever individual woman has to get hip to not minding penises, or she's letting down gender equality. People's life experiences, or their mental health, or a host of other things may have sensitised women to be particularly wary of men and penises. And as I say, wherever possible, society should be kind and respectful and accommodating of people's individual needs. But as a rule and in theory and as a society, we do need to question certain ingrained assumptions e.g. penis = danger, or how are we going to move forward?

I really feel for your friend though - I think it is a real catch 22 of mental illness that when you need to be institutionalised to get the help you need, it follows you will necessarily be sharing facilities with other troubled people whose own issues may well be exactly what you do not need to be interacting with for your own recovery. I wish I could think of a way around that problem.

Lela your long post is interesting. I and a lot of the feminists I know made the journey in the opposite direction, from queer theory and allyhood to concern about the degree to which it erases female reality.
I also agree with you that there is a lot of common ground and it is a constant source of frustration to me that we never get to discuss where that common ground is and isn't because the 'tw are women full stop' narrative disallows it.
(school run now, back later)

*How much "pain" do you think Danielle Muscato has gone through, user?

A great deal.*

That's hilarious user! Really it is!

so we do all basically agree that current transactivists are screwing this up for everyone then?

I wonder if we could also agree that a 10 year old child that identifies as a girl and performs femininity isn't actually going to endanger the value Guide camp gives as a female space?

There needs to be a compromise on both sides, but the trans activists are campaigning for such extremes that others fight back with equally extreme views from the opposing side.

Except I don't see this. I don't see "equally extreme" on the gender critical side. I don't see women doxxing trans activists, or ringing their employers, or trying to get their services shut down, or posing with knives and the hashtag #killalltrans. I don't see "stomp trans" badges being sold on etsy, by numerous sellers. I don't see women trashing a library because it dared to invite a trans speaker. I see all these things, and more, by trans activists against women, and it's not the fringe, it's the perfectly acceptable mainstream.

Are there some harsh words on the gender-critical side? Absolutely. I've even seen a small picket, once, in a photo on twitter. But to claim that there is any sort of equivalence is just disengenuous.

ArcheryAnnie I'm only saying that a lot of the views I see are equally extreme.

All vs nothing.

The transactivists threats and campaigns are absolutely horrific and there isn't any equivalence in the campaigning on both sides at all. The way the trans activists conduct themselves disgusts me and I don't agree with it at all. They certainly aren't doing what they do for the good of my family.

user892
Oh wow - so there's a whole load of sexist transwomen kicking women out and pissing all over their safe spaces?

Yes if you buy into the hyperbole that comes with these threads and take claims about unnamed 'transactivists' at face value, without considering context such as who, how many, how representative, validity of source material etc.

I find this all very frustrating. I have been gender critical for years. I loved the book Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine, as it dubunked so much of the ridiculous girlbrain/boybrain nonsense so beloved of evolutionary psychology.
How has it come to pass that being gender critical, that simply believing there are no currently provable, significant differences between male and female brains, and that therefore the differences lie purely in the physical biology, come to be seen as bigoted?

Because, if I believe, as I do, that there's no difference between me and a man in terms of our brains, that our differences are biological, and that gender is a social construct designed to control women's behaviours, then... what? How can I believe that someone was "born in the wrong body" or has the brain of the opposite sex when I don't think there are fundamental differences between those brains?

It's a logic fail. And it seems to have assumed the status of a religious belief. The difference being, my religious friends know I am an atheist. They are unthreatened by this, unoffended, and don't expect me to hold their worldview.

If, on the other hand, I simply express my personal, perfectly rational thoughts on sex, brains and gender, I get shouted down as a transphobe.
It's not fair. I'm entitled to my opinion, I'm entitled to not be forced to buy into some sort of dogma.

Fish I know people who don't believe trans people should have any rights at all exist, but I have never come across them here. I think if people who identify as trans want shelters, services, whatever for themselves, they should have them, and if any started up a campaign to start them (just as second-wave feminists did for women's services), I would support them. I don't personally know anyone who feels differently. The points of contention arise when trans activists demand everyone feel the same way about gender as they do, and redefine existence, language and identity for everyone, not just themselves; and when transwomen and "non-binary" males demand access to women's spaces, services, scholarships, refuges, everything that was fought so hard for, leaving women and girls with no female-only services, and to be second in line for the services that are left.

ArcheryAnnie - I don't know if this helps, but I think you are maybe not taking into account the horrific levels of discrimination, threat and outright violence that transwomen face every day. Equally, I think trans activists are sometimes prone to blending that all together into one single lump of lethal hostility, which isn't helpful either.

Certainly, I've got trans friends who routinely have people shout at them and throw things at them in the street, who have been denied accommodation and jobs based on their gender identity, who have been cut off by their families and most have been physically attacked. The only time I've ever been physically attacked in the street was by a bunch of girls for being affectionate in public with my then girlfriend who is trans. I didn't stop to ask them if they identified as gender critical feminists while they were kicking me in the head, but I think for a long time I very much associated the kind of dialogue I hear here with that attack.

And I think that's a huge issue. Both sides in this debate see themselves as under threat and both sides are under threat. But instead of both saying "the patriarchy fucking sucks" we knife each other for crumbs.

user this is Danielle Muscato.

Also wasn't there a case recently were a transwoman had assaulted women in a refuge? And one in Canada that nearly bankrupted a woman's shelter charity by taking them to court because they just wanted to 'help out' in the shelter.

"I personally assume that if someone with a male body insists on gatecrashing and then dominating a women-only space, despite objections, then they are a bigger threat than most other males, simply because of the power, entitlement and disregard for women's space they've displayed."

It's a really interesting viewpoint and obviously has happened. We just don't know how likely this is though, within the whole population of transgender women

From all the comments on these types of threads, that TAs like to label as transphobic, I have never heard anyone express a problem with transgender women per se.

The problems people have expressed are invading female only spaces, competing in female competitions and, the one that most concerns me, the health risks involved in the transgendering process, especially when small children are being encouraged to use hormone blockers to set them on their way.

ArcheryAnnie - I don't know if this helps, but I think you are maybe not taking into account the horrific levels of discrimination, threat and outright violence that transwomen face every day.

BraveDancing I've been knocking about in the LGBT movement for, oh, about 35 years, so I am perfectly aware of the situation. And - as I said upthread - I spent most of those 35 years thinking of trans people (different language then, but still) as my political siblings, my comrades, and we worked alongside each other against all the mountains of shit we were up against.

It's a different situation now, and I don't feel any sisterhood at all with the incredibly privileged, entitled (good mumsnet word), demanding, arrogant male-bodied people who now call themselves trans and demand to be the centre of women's energy, women's activism, and everything that women have fought for.

Are there still old-skool trans people who don't try to force everyone else to redefine reality? Yes, of course, and they get a mountain of shit from trans activists, too, just as we do. But it's the trans activists who are setting the agenda.