To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

Well if we're guessing and not using research any more - I would guess that most transwomen are likely to be of a significantly different mindset from that of a stereotypical man... By virtue of the fact that they identify as female.

The statistics on male violence are not just of stereotypical men, though. They are of all men. That includes campy gay men, men who identify as feminists, and it includes men who will in the future identify as transwomen.

A transwoman who is a sexual predator is a rarer breed than a regular male sexual predator, yes, because transwomen are a rarer breed than regular males. That is fairly obvious. It does not change the absolute risk presented by transwomen, though.

why would I assume that a specific group of males would have a different [insert characteristic here] than the wider category of males? Why would the default be to assume they will follow the pattern of females?

I can't answer why you should assume anything Annie but personally I assume that if they go through such pain to change their external appearance, that they are far more likely to align their behaviour to more feminine ideals, such as not being a horrible rapist.

No evidence of such of course, as none exists. But it's a realistic assumption that I think most people in the wider population would agree with.

Of course I think there's a danger of assuming a transsexual woman definitely won't be an attacker - absolutely. They're not transforming into magical benefient beings. Such thinking is naive.

Archery Annie I know, if only they'd just stuck to 'don't ask, don't tell', eh? Liberating policy.

I have studied this quite extensively (did my MA dissertation on Feminism and Trans Issues). The twists and turns and involutions the leaders of WMF had to go through to try and exclude certain people whilst including others, to a definition of womyn-born-womyn that kept changing because their binary ideas kept coming up against the exceptions that debunked the rule of the moment (e.g. gender non-binary performers they wanted to perform but who refused to identify as 'womyn-born-womyn', attendees who were born biologically female but had mastectomies and bottom surgery, butch lesbians who were wrongly 'outed' as trans women by self-appointed community policers) - they simply couldn't find a way of justifying the policy that wasn't offensive to someone who fell within their hallowed remit of 'womyn-born-womyn'. And that's because there really is no legitimate reason why women as a class should be siloed away from the rest of the world - that's just doing misogyny's job for it.

VestalVirgin - ok, delete the word stereotypical then - good point. I resubmit my point.

It does not change the absolute risk presented by transwomen, though.

But we don't know how to quantify this risk, do we?

ArcheryAnnie
user892 then offer me some better science, and I will read it.

I echo user''s questioning of your use of the study. It's very sloppy to claim that the available evidence is that transwomen commit the same level of violent crime as men on the basis of one study with a number of limitations. You should also note that the subjects of the study were post operative transsexuals rather than transwomen.

If you make any future claims about the study, it's worth being specific about its findings/limitations and making clear that you are referring to one study. Anything else is rather misleading.

And that's because there really is no legitimate reason why women as a class should be siloed away from the rest of the world - that's just doing misogyny's job for it.

I wish this comment had been on the thread before I bothered posting, it would have saved me a lot of time.

What does 'identifying as female' actually mean?

Yes - what kind of women are they? Until we have a study which shows what percentage of transwomen commit sexual offenses vs other population groups, we can't quantify the absolute risk.

Can't you just have a transphobic board where you can post this bigotry?

I wish this were the case. Transphobia is going to be the thing that makes me leave mumsnet one day. I hate feelig associated with what to me seem like ignorant and biggotted opinions.

but personally I assume that if they go through such pain to change their external appearance

Except most of them don't, user. I'm surprised you don't know this.

I personally assume that if someone with a male body insists on gatecrashing and then dominating a women-only space, despite objections, then they are a bigger threat than most other males, simply because of the power, entitlement and disregard for women's space they've displayed.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Why is that? What's wrong with penises that isn't wrong with vulvas (in inappropriate settings)? Was the transwoman being sexually aggressive in her display of her penis? Or is the display of a penis assumed to be more aggressive than the display of a vulva simply because of what it is?

^ and in numbers large enough to be universally valid (probably aint gonna happen anytime soon)

I'm using the word pain holistically, Annie

there really is no legitimate reason why women as a class should be siloed away

Except the women who wanted to be siloed away for the duration of a holiday are now not allowed to, because the place they'd enjoyed for years was bullied and harrassed out of existence. But hey, if you think there's not "legitimate" reason for them to want to enjoy it, then that's OK.

I personally assume that if someone with a male body insists on gatecrashing and then dominating a women-only space, despite objections, then they are a bigger threat than most other males, simply because of the power, entitlement and disregard for women's space they've displayed.

It's a really interesting viewpoint and obviously has happened. We just don't know how likely this is though, within the whole population of transgender women.

Stealing girls' and women's space, safety and privacy away is not a "good cause".

Exactly.
There is no way in which this could possibly be a "good cause".

Unless you accept without question the dogma that transwomen are women/transmen are men, then you are to be called bigoted and transphobic, yes? It's not acceptable under any circumstances to discuss biological reality. I'd like to be clear if that's the case.

How much "pain" do you think Danielle Muscato has gone through, user?

And - speaking holistically, of course - do you care at all about the pain that girls and women who can no longer access women-only groups and services feel? Do you care at all about the pain women feel when they realise even a DV refuge or a Rape Crisis centre is no longer available to them, unless they accept male bodies alongside of them?

archery the level of threat/aggression I would experience from a trans woman using a female space would vary a lot from circumstance to circumstance.

Going to a women only gym session when our societal default is that gyms are mixed would seem a little aggressive.

Using the women's loos in a supermarket while wearing a dress and otherwise performing femininity, if the only other option is the mens loo, doesn't seem aggressive at all.

@OhisHOME I wouldn't be told IF a boy was at my daughter guide camp...that is the point of my original post.

All girls (born with a vulva and able to bear young once matured) are and welcome at Guides including those who think they are boys and call themselves "Bob"

After all many children make pretend and indentify as opposite sex whilst young..it is a natural part of childhood but the majority grow out of it if allowed too.

Therefore this is not a "Trans" issue it is a female sex issue.

How much "pain" do you think Danielle Muscato has gone through, user?

A great deal.

do you care at all about the pain that girls and women who can no longer access women-only groups and services feel? Do you care at all about the pain women feel when they realise even a DV refuge or a Rape Crisis centre is no longer available to them, unless they accept male bodies alongside of them?

If someone is attacked at a woman-only group, service, DV refuge, rape crisis centre etc by anyone - of course I care about their pain... why wouldn't I?

It's a really interesting viewpoint and obviously has happened. We just don't know how likely this is though, within the whole population of transgender women.

Um, if this were a rare thing to happen, I should think that there would be more women-only spaces left. Unless you suggest that it takes one transwoman, tops, to make the guides (and various other groups) change their rules against the protests of women.

What is happening is that the gatecrashing is done at a societal level. The individual transwoman can thus claim to not have broken any rules, but will still profit.
Surprisingly (or not), this sounds weirdly similar to how patriarchy operates ...

Bigoted and transphobic because I believe in scientific fact.....okay then, makes loads of sense. Yep totally reasonable to call me those names because I believe in biology.
What a strange world some of you must live in where science is the fairytale and and the impossible is fact.

I can't answer why you should assume anything Annie but personally I assume that if they go through such pain to change their external appearance, that they are far more likely to align their behaviour to more feminine ideals, such as not being a horrible rapist

But most don't. I've lost count of the number of young lesbians who have told me that they are no longer safe in lesbian / womens spaces because of transwomen harassing them. Many of these MtTs still have penises.

I'm afraid, Morphene, if you require that transwomen perform femininity before accepting them as women, you will be placed by trans activists into the naughty corner with the rest of us mumsnetters for being allegedly horrible bigoted transphobes. According to current dogma, if someone says they are a woman, then we must accept they are a woman, however male their presentation, name, body, beard, life experience and pay packet....

Does anybody know the ratio of trans-men to trans-women? Does it occur equally for both sexes?