To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

But some transwomen are violent and/or predatory, just as some men are, and just because it doesn't fit your narrative of "transwomen are always victims of violence and never the perpetrators" I won't shut up about it.

I have no such narrative, Annie and I haven't told you to shut up.

However, the idea that we can make any kinds of reasonable conclusions or predictions on (up to) 43 year old data concerning 8 individuals who may or may not have committed sexual offences - is ridiculous to anyone who has any background in understanding statistics.

I'm not saying be quiet about it. Just don't use this ^ research to prop up your thoughts as it doesn't bear scrutiny and undermines your argument.

then offer me some better science, and I will read it.

I can't - it doesn't exist. No research can say that transgender women are just as likely to commit violent crime as men.

Thanks for the link. Of course some transsexuals will be sexual predators. Anyone, including women (though overwhelmingly men) can be a sexual predator.

But the existence of a transsexual sexual predator doesn't prove that male-to-female transsexuals are (as a distinct group) more likely to be sexual predators than women. This has not been appropriately studied.

Not one poster has said that Satan so stop trying to make this thread about something its not.

It is making sure that private safe spaces for girls remain private and safe spaces for girls.

Titchy a lot of people never have full gender reassignment surgery many only have top surgery, correction of passports etc & hormones, because they believe what's in their pants is irrelevant and only matters to them. What then?

RacoonBandit I was referencing this from another poster

If people think there is no need to segregate because young boys are not sex pests, for example, let's discuss that.

So no I'm not trying to make the thread into anything else.

I'm not sure whether I'm angry or just in despair.

I get the impression that some here deny that people can even be transgendered, in the same way plenty of people don't believe bisexuality exists because they have no internal frame of reference. Transgender exists, the rest of us don't have to like it, but we have to live with it.

OP, if you feel so strongly about it, why not simply withdraw your daughter from the Guides and find some other female-only place they can go? If no such place exists, what does that tell you about your reasonableness?

Saying biology is meaningless is fucking offensive to females who go through FGM, infanticide because of heir SEX, whoa re trafficked, abused and treated horrifically the world over...because of their SEX! Do you think people performing FGM on newborn's ask them if they feel like a girl before they do it? I don't think people realise how dangerous it is to females to chuck the biology argument out of the window.

Yes, this. I don't think a girl being trafficked into sex slavery can just say 'wait, I feel like a man, may i be excused please' can they?

If people think there is no need to segregate because young boys are not sex pests, for example, let's discuss that.

But this thread isn't about that - at least it didn't start that way. This thread started because the one, afaik, female only space that girls had, has now been very quietly destroyed. Girls yet again have their views and opinions quashed in favour of those born male. By the very organisation that purports to campaign for female issues. And GGUK should be ashamed of themselves.

This is a point of principle about the erosion of female rights.

Can we focus on the OP? That was about young children, not sexually mature trans adults.

Ffs!!! The trans child IS a girl. They were born in the wrong body. they are learning to live as girls and then women.

Bollocks. The trans child can have no concept of how it feels to be female. They may feel not-male, but that is not the same thing. Only born women can have any real concept of how it feels to be female - unless a male child is reared as female from birth.

This thread is making me so angry this is a girl you are talkzing about

Nope. No.
This is a boy. Still has the penis they were born with so a boy plus all of the DNA. You cannot possibly say otherwise.

Would you call him a rabbit if walked around in a rabbit costume all day and called himself Roger? No of course you wouldnt because you cannot change from human to rabbit just like you cannot change sex from a boy to a girl.

there is no reason to assume transwomen would be any different from other males.

Well if we're guessing and not using research any more - I would guess that most transwomen are likely to be of a significantly different mindset from that of a stereotypical man... By virtue of the fact that they identify as female.

Therefore I would guess that a transwoman who is a sexual predator, is a rarer breed than a male sexual predator.

'OP, if you feel so strongly about it, why not simply withdraw your daughter from the Guides and find some other female-only place they can go? If no such place exists, what does that tell you about your reasonableness?'

It doesn't tell her anything at all, unless you are of the opinion that everything is all for the best in the best of all possible worlds and wanting anything different from what you've got is unreasonable.

agree, people are so aggressive and vile about what is effectively a CHILD

but has penis, WILL rape seems to be the prevalent view and there are no shades of grey

There is a scary prejudice this www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3390705/Transgender-rapist-sent-male-prison-GUILTY-raping-teenage-girl-man.html is how 100% of the population behave

Can we focus on the OP? That was about young children, not sexually mature trans adults.

What age do kids start get changed separately in schools? Here I know my 5 & 7 year olds get changed in the classroom in front of everyone, girls and boys. Fine with me.

So 10 year olds is different as some may have developed secondary sexual characteristics?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel

I think both of the examples you give are very unfortunate situations that shouldn't have happened. In both cases, I would have advised your friend and friend of friend to speak to whoever was in charge and ask that something be done - in the first case, that the obviously ill patient was encouraged to cover themselves in public spaces as making the other residents uncomfortable - although I imagine it would have been just as uncomfortable if she had been a biological female with her fanny on display, and the same advice would apply. In the second case, my first question would be how did your friends' friend know they were a transwoman - did she get her dick out? In which case, cause for prosecution right there. Or was it just an assumption based on atypical gender presentation? In which case, could just as easily be a non-typically-feminine woman. Either way, if you are unhappy with a medical caregiver for any reason (you do not have to give one) you can request someone else, and should do so.

OP, if you feel so strongly about it, why not simply withdraw your daughter from the Guides and find some other female-only place they can go? If no such place exists, what does that tell you about your reasonableness

Because women and girls should always have to be the ones to make way ...

All this tells us is about the oppression of women and girls, of which the TRA narrative is a growing part.

I think any 10 year old with growing boobs may want to get changed in private. If no bathroom is available / busy they do it in their sleeping bag, don't they? Can't see much of an issue.

I get the impression that some here deny that people can even be transgendered, in the same way plenty of people don't believe bisexuality exists because they have no internal frame of reference. Transgender exists, the rest of us don't have to like it, but we have to live with it.

I don't have a problem with a man who decides that they would like to dress in what society deems to be women's clothes, wear make up, maybe have longer hair, change their name to a more traditionally female one, and request that people refer to them as 'she', if they would like. This person has the right to go about their daily lives, doing their thing without fear or discrimination or violence.

What I do have a problem with is when that person insists they are an actual 'woman', that they know more about what being a woman is than someone who was born female, who insists that their penis is 'female' and that biology is completely irrelevant, who insists that it is born female who change their status to 'cis woman' to accommodate them being referred to as 'woman', who declares that a lesbian who doesn't want their penis inside them is 'transphobic', who wants the same status as women so that they can access female rape crisis centres or can treat women who have specifically asked for a female doctor. Etc etc.

But the existence of a transsexual sexual predator doesn't prove that male-to-female transsexuals are (as a distinct group) more likely to be sexual predators than women.

Even if I accept your dismissal of the only study there has been (I don't) why would I assume that a specific group of males would have a different [insert characteristic here] than the wider category of males? Why would the default be to assume they will follow the pattern of females? It makes no sense.

Well if we're guessing and not using research any more - I would guess that most transwomen are likely to be of a significantly different mindset from that of a stereotypical man... By virtue of the fact that they identify as female.

But this goes back to the age old question that no one seems to be able to answer: What does 'identifying as female' actually mean? What does it mean to 'live as a woman' if biology is irrelevant?

ArcheryAnnie But I am not supporting the death threats, abuse, funding withdrawals. I am supporting the adoption of an inclusive approach to trans people wherever it is practical to do so. I am also fighting the essentialism that suggests women are happier/safer/better off in exclusively female-bodied company, which is used as a way of excluding trans women and girls from situations and activities where there transness is utterly irrelevant e.g. camping. Saying you can't support trans people without approving the abusive behaviour of certain factions who also claim to support trans people is like saying you can't promote black equality without supporting the Black Panther Party. It's just silly. The principles of a good cause do not become tainted because some people do bad things supposedly in the name of that cause.

Lela
Case 1, she complained and was not taken seriously, was told it was fine.
Case 2, from what I understand at second hand, it was really obvious, male pattern baldness etc.
I am glad you agree both of these were problematic. The second has had an apology, the first nothing.

If no such place exists, what does that tell you about your reasonableness?

What this says to me is that transactivists are ruthlessly harrassing, bullying and destroying any women-only organisation which won't prioritise their desires, that's what it says to me.

You are utterly wrong that she would have been equally uncomfortable with a vulva on display BTW.

The principles of a good cause do not become tainted because some people do bad things supposedly in the name of that cause.

Stealing girls' and women's space, safety and privacy away is not a "good cause".