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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

999 replies

Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 09:49

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
titchy · 12/01/2017 13:34

I would fiercely defend the right of a trans child to be in the brownies or guides

What about the Rangers Isadora? Would you be happy with a 6 ft 2 17 year old be-penised trans girl sharing a tent with a 14 year old female?

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 12/01/2017 13:35

You don't understand why because you don't have a transgender child who wants to go to guides.

There is a middle ground here, it seems you wouldn't be happy with that though.

user892 · 12/01/2017 13:37

Annie - have you done your own appraisal of the study?

I can't find any other studies of transgender and crime at present. As it is, we have data on 8 male-to-female individuals who committed some sort of violent crime in Sweden from 1973 - 2003... and were no more likely than anyone else to commit crimes if they reassigned after 1989.

Your statement...

the available studies (although I believe on grown-ups) say that transwomen commit violent crimes at the same rate as men

...is simply untrue. We have not followed up barely anything like enough male-to-female subjects to make any kind of predictions on behaviour.

I've observed you quoting this several times on Mumsnet and I disagree with you in the strongest sense - from a purely scientific point of view. Your argument is bad science.

Original poster
Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 13:38

@stopfuckingshoutingatme Wrong again. This is a girl thread about my daughters...other peoples are discussing other issues. Just want a safe space for my girls to learn from and with other girls.

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 13:38

Because how otherwise would these concerned parents be sure there wasn't a trans girl sneaking in under the radar? This is why the Michigan Womyn's Festival came a bit unstuck with its policy of Womyn-Born-Womyn only - how do you actually establish this without being oppressive to trans women and cis women? Not to mention trans men?

The irony here, lelapaletute, was that Michigan always did have a tiny handful of transwomen attending, all through its history - but they flew under the radar because they didn't wave their dicks around, or sport beards, and mostly had actually transitioned. Michigan didn't "come unstuck" at all, they were attacked and harrassed and their music acts bullied until it simply wasn't worth them continuing, because they would not sign up to a public policy of Come One Penis, Come All.

midcenturymodern · 12/01/2017 13:39

lel you sure did address a hell of a long post to me for someone who isn't arsed. I am not wedded to my 'identity' as woman. I don't believe in identity politics. Nor do I believe that women can identify out of sex based oppression or believe that women should move over because men tell us to. I'm not handing out any cookies to women who are happy to throw the rest of us under the bus in an attempt to be liberal.

As an aside there is a very good documentary on Netflix right now called 13th which delves into the 'black people commit more crime' can of worms.

midcenturymodern · 12/01/2017 13:41

I wonder if the brownies will open itself up to trans age individuals.

derxa · 12/01/2017 13:42

Thank God I was a child in the 60s and 70s. All of this is just nuts.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/01/2017 13:42

Just want a safe space for my girls to learn from and with other girls

Hear hear! Star!

Look, I do take on board how hard it can be for parents of trans kids - but why can't the middle ground be that they are sent to Cubs, leaving guides a safe space for girls (as babieseverywhere said)?

ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 13:48

user892 then offer me some better science, and I will read it.

In the meantime, would you like to have a look at this thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2824913-Paedophile-transsexual-gets-fawning-profile-in-newspaper-convicted-again-of-paedophile-offence-a-month-later

I am constantly annoyed at the strawman that raising the issue of violent crime committed by transwomen means that we are "painting all trans people as predators". But some transwomen are violent and/or predatory, just as some men are, and just because it doesn't fit your narrative of "transwomen are always victims of violence and never the perpetrators" I won't shut up about it.

OhisHOME · 12/01/2017 13:54

Not read the whole thread but I'm thinking the child you are talking about indentifies as a girl and therefore should be treated as one. They will be treated as such a school, or should be. They will probably be conscious of there body not matching the gender they feel they are and will change in private.

TrickyD · 12/01/2017 13:56

OP, being trans doesn't make you any more likely to assault others. This is a concept much of mn seems to struggle to get its collective head around

But it doesn't make you any less likely, either.

OhisHOME · 12/01/2017 13:59

**Why can't they go to cubs but which toilets & sleeping area would you have them use?

VestalVirgin · 12/01/2017 14:00

...is simply untrue. We have not followed up barely anything like enough male-to-female subjects to make any kind of predictions on behaviour.

Male-to-female subjects are males, they have the same biological characteristics as all other males, and it is very well known that males offend at much higher rates than women.

If one were to claim that transwomen commit more crimes than other males, that would be a claim that would need scientific proof. And I would agree that the claims of transmen offending at higher rates than women might be questionable due to to small sample size or something.

But there is no reason to assume transwomen would be any different from other males.

There are no studies on whether sugar is as bad for your teeth if it is sold in packaging labeled "salt" as when it is labeled "sugar", but most people would assume it is the same as regular sugar. Because that is how reality works.

VestalVirgin · 12/01/2017 14:01

They will probably be conscious of there body not matching the gender they feel they are and will change in private.

If this is "probably" the case, why not provide private changing facilities for them instead of forcing them on the girls, hmmmm?

LunaLoveg00d · 12/01/2017 14:06

Ffs!!! The trans child IS a girl. They were born in the wrong body. they are learning to live as girls and then women.

No, this is the essence of the matter and you are falling for the rhetoric. We are born male or female. Whatever you "feel", whatever you chop off your body or have implanted into your body, whatever clothes you wear and how you choose to live your life cannot change your basic biology. Male or female. Someone born male may choose to refer to themselves as "she", have breast implants and call themselves Tallulah but they are a transwoman, NOT a woman.

Atenco · 12/01/2017 14:06

Personally I think transitioning children is child abuse which would concern me much more than whether said child was in female only spaces.

However, re. the OP, maybe we need to go back to the reason for sex-segregated spaces. Because it strikes me as very odd that institutions are violating this concept while upholding them at the same time.

If people think there is no need to segregate because young boys are not sex pests, for example, let's discuss that.

Original poster
Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 14:06

@OhisHOME That is up to the cubs. Cub are unisex and parents have signed up for that when their children join. I send my DS there accepting those terms.

I am only concerned about the erasure of the 'girl only' guides space for my daughters sake.

OP posts:
OhisHOME · 12/01/2017 14:07

This thread is making me so angry this is a girl you are talkzing about, when would you allow them to be treated as such use the correct bathroom etc? When they start hormone blockers? Hormones for the gender they identify with? When they had surgery? Top surgery? Bottom surgery? When their documents are changed (which can happen before surgery, hormones etc?) never?

OhisHOME · 12/01/2017 14:08

Does this child identify as a girl? Use female pronouns and a female name?

Satansbanana · 12/01/2017 14:09

Atenco yes let's discuss it, are 10 year old boys sex pests? Because this is the feeling I'm getting from this thread.

titchy · 12/01/2017 14:11

IT'S NOT ABOUT TRANS KIDS BEING SEX PESTS FFS. And no-one has said that. It's about preserving female only spaces for girls and teenagers.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/01/2017 14:12

Satansbanana, most aren't, I am sure, but the boy who sent sexual pics to my dd was 11 or 12, so it's not exactly vanishingly rare are that age.

titchy · 12/01/2017 14:12

when would you allow them to be treated as such use the correct bathroom etc

Personally? When they are an adult and have a GRC.

Satansbanana · 12/01/2017 14:13

Titchy I was referencing this,

If people think there is no need to segregate because young boys are not sex pests, for example, let's discuss that.