To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

VestalVirgin so basically all boys are potential sex offenders...get a grip! Women offend too, does that make all little girls potential sex offenders?

I am not convinced the TAs are actually helping themselves, Morphene!

Haven't rtft but surely this same issue must come up around school changing rooms, where at a certain age boys and girls change separately? I don't suppose it's about protecting those children and teenagers from assault so much as giving them privacy to only change around people of the same sex, with the same body parts, rather than be embarrassed by their (changing) bodies in front of someone who has different genitalia. I remember feeling very shy about my body from the pre-teen years onwards.
What I do find exasperating about these threads (and I was on the other side of the argument until MN feminist boards changed my view completely) is that nobody can give scientific evidence of "being born in the wrong body" or "lady brain". Ultimately that's what swayed my opinion.
I am caucasian. I could believe that I was Asian and start affecting an accent, mimicking the appearance of someone from an Asian culture and telling people I was actually Asian but people would find that offensive and absurd, or they would see it as a sign that I was in need of some kind of therapy. People might be accommodating of my desire to adopt Asian fashions and customs, take an interest in any specifically Asian issues for example. But if I started wanting to access services specifically for Asian people, and claim that I was Asian and in the wrong body people would draw the line. Rachel Dolezal is a good example of this.
I feel we need to work on making it so that gender is irrelevant- if a male wants to grow their hair long, wear a dress and collect dolls then that should be accepted as part of the vast spectrum of normal human behaviour- not evidence that they are actually a woman.

Midcenturymodern

OK, what I can't be arsed to do is have the argument over whether trans women are 'real' women or not (and thus justify drily and literally appellations like 'lesbian' as applied to trans women). It simply isn't important enough to me whether they are 'real' women or not.

The thing for me is, I am not so wedded to my identity as woman that I feel the need to defend it from all comers. I'm a little baffled by why any woman would be, from a feminist perspective. I am what I am; I have a certain type of body, which is similar to many but not identical to any; and I am an individual. Being labelled 'a woman' is far more often restrictive to me than it is empowering, sadly, and that is what needs to change. But I don't object to the label, qua label; where it seeks to inhibit me, I ignore it; where I face discrimination on its basis, I fight the discrimination, and force people to treat with me on my own terms. By doing this, I hope to set an example to my daughter - that people can call her a woman if they like, but that has no bearing on who she is and what she can and cannot do or say or be. I think that should surely be where feminism is heading - where 'man' and 'woman' are as irrelevant to how one is treated and respected as 'blue eyes' or 'brown eyes'.

What I do think matters is civility, kindness and respect. If someone with a penis (or who has had a penis) has a real need or desire to be called and 'treated like' a girl/woman (whatever the heck that means at any given time) - what harm is that to me? I particularly feel this in the case of children - I'm not going to be the one to make a confused 10 year old cry by refusing to call them by the pronoun of their choice, and barring them from playing with/camping with certain of their peers on an arbitrary basis. I'm just not.

I am not trans, so don't feel the need to argue that trans women categorically ARE 'real' women - how would I know, I'm not in their heads and bodies, and I don't even know what they mean by 'real women'! But as I don't think being a woman really has any particular bearing on who they are as a person, what harm to me to welcome them into my 'women's' space (which I make it my own business to break out of, because I don't want to live in a ghetto; a huge part of the women's movement has been to break out of 'female' spaces and into 'male' ones); to call them 'her' and 'she'; to share toilet facilities with her? Moreover, what harm to me to share toilet facilities with a dick-swinging self-declared man, in principle? I do at home.

If a trans woman rapes or assaults me in a 'women's space', then I have a problem. But I have that problem if anyone rapes or assaults me, be that a biological woman in a 'woman's space', or a biological man in a 'man's/unisex' space, or anyone anywhere in between. I do not want to feel I am only safe if I hide away in 'womens' space'. I will not be made to feel that way. And I will not be made to fear and suspect people because of their bodies, just because of statistics. Black people statistically commit more crime; I refuse to be afraid of, and silo myself off from, black people on that basis, because it is repulsive to do so. You can't decide that someone is a risk because they have or have had a particular type of body. Well, you can, I can't stop you. But I won't. Nor will I deliberately hurt people by telling them they are not male/female/whatever else when it makes not a damn of difference to my life whether they are or not, and they would be happier if I went with their self-definition.

Morphene transactivists, in my opinion, are generally men on a power trip jumping into a bandwagon because they can use it to trample all over the rights of women. They enjoy the power and the fact that we can't seem to do anything about it.

In the process they are trampling all over the rights of my child too, my child is now being 'strongly encouraged' to use spaces related to the sex they present as rather than the private spaces previously used so the school can tick their quota of being inclusive.

Transactivists have done us no favours at all.

My child who has been through this for many years, long before it became the in thing, has less rights and help now and is also being lumped in with people who show up dressed differently on a whim one day and identify as the opposite sex for a week.

Where I think transgender children should be allowed into the guides etc, I think there needs to balance where there is a separate spaces for showers and the like on trips. The child doesn't need to be outed, they just need to say medical reasons as we always have if anyone questions.

So if a cis-boy wants to dress as a girl and go on Brownie camp, share a tent etc, that would not be OK.
If a trans-girl wants to dress as a girl and go on Brownie camp, share a tent etc, that would be OK.
The only difference in these two situations is the trans-girl's gender identity, which can't be quantified or measured, it is based on feelings.

So parents are being asked to accept a situation that would normally be unacceptable based on the feelings of one person, who they probably don't know very well.
The parents of the trans child are assumed to be speaking the truth. The other parents are not even considered trustworthy enough to be given information about what is happening.

lelapaletute totally agree, brilliant post!

lelapaletute I also totally agree, brilliant post!
The difference for the OP is we are talking about children not adults, and whether a parent has the right to know if their young daughter is sharing a tent with somebody who is physiologically male.

BigBadWolves - I understand that a trans child needs sensitive consideration but surely that's not at the outright expense of all the other girls and their parents - they have a right to know if a boy (identifying as a girl or not) will be sleeping in the tents with them. Girl guiding is a female only space, always has been and that's what most people consider it to be. To include a boy (albeit one that identifies as a girl) and not let others know is tantamount to lying and will put guide leaders in a very difficult position.

I was going to write something but Fishinawetsuit said it far ,ore eloquently than I ever would so I shall just copy and paste.

*Morphene transactivists, in my opinion, are generally men on a power trip jumping into a bandwagon because they can use it to trample all over the rights of women. They enjoy the power and the fact that we can't seem to do anything about it.

In the process they are trampling all over the rights of my child too, my child is now being 'strongly encouraged' to use spaces related to the sex they present as rather than the private spaces previously used so the school can tick their quota of being inclusive.

Transactivists have done us no favours at all.

My child who has been through this for many years, long before it became the in thing, has less rights and help now and is also being lumped in with people who show up dressed differently on a whim one day and identify as the opposite sex for a week.

Where I think transgender children should be allowed into the guides etc, I think there needs to balance where there is a separate spaces for showers and the like on trips. The child doesn't need to be outed, they just need to say medical reasons as we always have if anyone questions.*

user I have seen critiques of that study - by the likes of Sarah Brown (she of the "suck my formaldehyde pickles balls" advice to lesbians) and transadvocate, so I will take them with a truckload of salt. If you have any alternative studies to offer I will read them.

I find it fascinating (ie immensely depressing) that most if the "trans prisoner" stories in the last few years have been incredibly sympathetic, and about people with male bodies who have committed violent (or incredibly violent) crimes before demanding admittance to the female estate. Since women prisoners are a tiny population compared to the male prison population, and since something like 81% of women prisoners are in prison for nonviolent crime (and are very likely to be victims - of DV, child abuse etc) themselves as well as offenders, I will pay very close attention to any studies on comparative rates of offending.

So lela - would you be happy with all children sharing mixed changing/sleeping facilities at all times?

Why do we bother to separate boys from girls at all?

Everything Lelapaletute said

Timeforteaplease

Thanks. Well, I think it has to be one or the other. If the Guides are going to accept trans girls as girls for the purposes of membership, then no, I don't think parents should be apprised of which children are trans and sharing tents with their daughters. Because that could be very harmful for the child, who is already vulnerable. Even taking the anti-trans brigade's POV that being trans is a mental illness - what if one of the girls in Guides had some other mental illness, like an eating disorder, depression, or manic depression, or schizophrenia? Should the parents of other girls be entitled to that child's personal infomation, and whether that child was sharing a tent with their daughter? I would say not, as this is intrusive and damaging for the vulnerable child.

I think in that instance, if Guides are public about the fact they include trans girls in their definition of girls, then parents know there is a small chance their daughters' troop may include a trans girl. They can then decide what their concerns are about that, weigh up their perception of the risks (whatever they are) to their daughter, against the benefits of participating in Guide camp, and then decide if they want their daughter to participate.

The alternative is for parents to campaign for Guides to exclude trans girls altogether on principle (this would of course mean all the girls would need to have some sort of sex test upon joining, which is pretty yicky thought in my view), so they would know there was no chance of a penis being anywhere near their daughters on camp. Or for parents to found a different group (formal or informal) where that was the policy.

What I do think matters is civility, kindness and respect.

lelapaletute have you seen the quality of discourse in the trans community recently? Have you looked at sites like terfisaslur.com/ which document this harrassment, the death threats and so on? Have you seen how even trans women who don't toe the trans activist line, like Miranda Yardley (who is a member here and has been brilliant in standing up for women) get the most unspeakable abuse? Did you know that transactivists are currently trying to stop the funding of the Working Class Movement Library - a library, for goodness' sake - because they have the temerity to invite a working-class lesbian to speak they don't agree with? Civility, kindness and respect went out the window a long time ago, and it's women who are being attacked, harrassed, threatened and hurt.

this would of course mean all the girls would need to have some sort of sex test upon joining

Why would this be the case, lelapaletute?

JigglyTuff Why indeed? I don't think children should be forced to be naked in front of adults or other children of any gender - I think people's bodily integrity should entail the right to bodily privacy if wanted. So showers/toilets/changing rooms should have cubicles that children can use if they want privacy. Children seem to go in phases with this - I remember around the age of 6 suddenly becoming insanely private about my body, not even wanting to share baths with my sister as I had happily for years. It passed.

As far as sleeping goes, you're asleep - why does it matter who you're sleeping next to/near?

ArcheryAnnie I think trans activists who are abusive and oppressive are bad people. I think anyone who is abusive and oppressive is a bad person. There's no need to follow their example.

lelapaletute - really good posts. Thank you.

Lela,
'What I do think matters is civility, kindness and respect. If someone with a penis (or who has had a penis) has a real need or desire to be called and 'treated like' a girl/woman (whatever the heck that means at any given time) - what harm is that to me? '

But how do you trade this off against the needs of girls and women to privacy and safety? It's easy to say you're in favour of kindness and respect. No-one is going to argue with that (it's like motherhood and apple pie).
But when the wish to be kind to the penis havers means that a woman in a mental hospital is forced to share a common room with a transwoman in a short skirt who sits around with their penis showing (happened to my friend a few months ago) or a woman who had been raped and requested a woman to do her smear was sent a transwoman (friend of a friend, again in the last few months), the desire for kindness and respect starts to look like it is being applied more in favour of transwomen than biological women.

Because how otherwise would these concerned parents be sure there wasn't a trans girl sneaking in under the radar? This is why the Michigan Womyn's Festival came a bit unstuck with its policy of Womyn-Born-Womyn only - how do you actually establish this without being oppressive to trans women and cis women? Not to mention trans men?

"I feel we need to work on making it so that gender is irrelevant"

That's as may be... but until then how about we just live and let live. What possibly advantage would a young person have in "pretending" to want to be a different sex and being able to join the fecking brownies? What?

As a former rainbow and brownie leader I did not deal (unfortunately) with any transgendered children. As a mum I had a daughter who wanted to be known as a boy and dress like one and have her hair cut off. It was a short while that she wanted this, and so we agreed. She didn't want to be called a boy at school which made me think it was a similar thing to when she wanted to be a dog. She ate her tea off the floor for a few nights. Both those times were fine and part of a normal childhood.

My friends daughter was born male. From the age of 2/3 she would say "when I grow up I want to be a mummy". She was raised by a sahd and so had a lot of male role models and she enjoyed sports and crafts and all sorts of non gender specific activities. Luckily she could join beavers in a unisex group and she adopted her middle name which was also gender neutral. She is now in her teens and although she has had hormone treatment to live as a girl and not have male puberty she has not had any surgery yet as she is still young. It has been a very difficult journey for them all and her siblings as well. I cannot see why anyone would choose to pretend and I cant see how they could keep up that "act" at all.

I would fiercely defend the right of a trans child to be in the brownies or guides and as a guider I would be happy to have them in my pack and I genuinely believe they would only enhance the group should they choose to tell their peers (most would know as I assume they'd be at school together.)

Oh it's a trans bashing thread. I hadn't realised as you didn't make that clear in your original post. My fault for not reading the article first I guess

this

I just don't understand why anyone would sent their boy to guides, when there is the unisex cubs option. Why not send your boy to cubs and let them play with the girls there ? Cubs is already set up for unisex events and the parents (including me) send children to Cubs knowing this.

I also read that cubs opened to girls as their numbers were dropping. Certainly the nearest cub troop is 3 miles away but we have 3 rainbows, 2 brownies, 1 guides and 1 senior section on our doorstep and ALL have waiting lists.

Maybe the cubs should update their program to appeal to all boys and girls. I think our local cub group does this successfully.

So I think cubs need to change to cover all boys even the ones who feel different.

Keep guides for girls only.

ArcheryAnnie I think trans activists who are abusive and oppressive are bad people. I think anyone who is abusive and oppressive is a bad person. There's no need to follow their example.^

Since I haven't bullied, harrassed, or insulted anyone, or been totes OK about my buddies sending death threats, or campaigned to withdraw funding from libraries, I have no intention of following their example.

But the trans activists who are doing this stuff are not the fringe - they are the mainstream. They aren't outliers, but those pushing policy. It's not enough for you to say "oh, i don't like bad people" if you are at the same time supporting everything they stand for.