To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

Midcenturymodern

But no-one gets their head cut off here for being gay. And trans people suffer a huge amount of discrimination for being trans (this thread case in point). So why, in this country, would people prefer to 'force' gay children down the trans route, which is hugely controversial, challenging, and drastic? Especially when you have trans children of gay parents, for example, who obviously aren't bigoted against homosexuals?

That's incorrect and inaccurate Lap.
A lesbian as you well know is a female who is attracted to other females....same sex attraction. A trans women is a man who had/has a penis, born male brought up male has male DNA so if they fancy women it makes them heterosexual. Don't act thick please.

Err, mate, I never 'insisted' that anyone should let anyone put their penises in ANYONE. Nor would I, ever, and the implication is utterly offensive. Where the hell did that come from? You should only have sex with people you fancy. If you don't fancy transwomen, then I wouldn't sleep with them if I were you, and don't let anyone tell you different

Apologies, I wasn't specifically aiming that at you. The fact is that transwomen are not and cannot be lesbians (transmen however can). But because of this insistence that TW can be lesbian there are many lesbians who are bullied and bellitled because they do not see TW as a possible partner.

So lesbians can define themselves, but trans people can't. Interesting perspective on self-definition.

Racoon I have been polite to you. Do not call me thick, I am far from it. If you're going to be abusive, I don't think there is any need for me to speak to you.

"You do know lots of trans women are lesbians? It is just not as simple as saying people are pushing gay children down the trans route due to homophobia."

How does this apply for children?

My understanding for the typical adult male who trans post-marriage (think Bruce Jenner), that they have autogynephilia - this means they get aroused by themselves as women. Bruce famously boasted of wanking off in his daughter's underwear. Now that Bruce has changed his name to Caitlyn he continues to have sex with women.

That doesn't make him a women, it just makes him someone who dresses up as one for sexual arousal. Just as dressing up as a penguin doesn't making you a penguin, Bruce dressing up as a woman doesnt make him a woman.

However autogynephilia (your nonsense 'lesbian' description) is much less common at child age, although it may figure in for teens. So from what I can see this IS primarily about telling gay boys that they are actually women, because men don't do X.

I agree with bravedancing. I wish it was possible to have a conversation without serious nastiness towards a child (or an adult) going through something quite challenging.

I like the idea of Morphenes gender free childhood. Though Id rather children had the right to total privacy if they want it.

I agree that guides is confidence building but Im not sure thats because it was single sex. More because it was well run and a place where people were accepted for themselves.

My other experiences of girls only spaces were less positive. I was a confident, actually pretty dominating child. I tended to be the centre of any situation (Im sure I was pretty obnoxious actually). And then I went to secondary school & had female only friendship groups. At the same time my home life was rough& I was vulnerable.

My opinions and interests (the environment, politics, history, sci fi) didnt fit. My way of thinking and expressing myself wasnt right. It was there that I learned to keep my mouth shut, to apologise for my opinions and behave in a typically female way.

Did everyone else really have lovely bonding period chats? Because I and my friends experienced competitive puberty - and when my periods did start at 12 I was laughed at and told I was lying. By girls.

Im not denying that sexism exists. It does and is a real, massive problem BUT Im not buying these lovely confidence building girls only spaces.

Surely what we need to do is address to roots of the concern. How can we ensure privacy for anyone who wants it. How can we ensure a culture where children feel empowered and its not just one or two individuals who dominate. In the adult world how can we make sure public toilets are safe (whats to stop a potential attacker from walking in to most of them anyway, no need to pretend to be trans)

I didn't call you thick Lap I said don't act thick. You know full well a man/Mel who fancies women is heterosexual so why act thick by calling them lesbians?

I think the word modest goes a long way to defining the meaning of 'feeling female'.

Most of the other stereotypically feminine traits are shared by at least some men I know, and absent in at least some women I know.

But modesty as a virtue in a person or something a person might care about is 100% gendered in the people I know.

For all these things there are externally verifiable objective qualifiable characteristics and prerequesites. Why has biological sex suddenly been chucked by the wayside in favour of mushy subjective feelz? Women are still subjected to discrimination and violence on the basis of their objective biology. Whether you are a 25 yr old newly married women applying for a City job perceived as being a maternity risk, or a rural Nigerian girl fearful that Boko Haram is attacking the neighbouring village... biology shapes our outcomes and opportunties as women. "Identifying" otherwise doesn't mean shit in the face of oppression. Only by being able to specifically and objectively name our oppression and oppressors can we hope to dismantle the structures which constrain and subjugate us

Thank you! star]

BorpBorpBorp

Biologically male/female" is meaningless. There are more than two naturally occurring arrangements of genitalia and reproductive organs, more than two naturally occuring configurations of chromosomes, more than two naturally occuring balances of sex hormones.

I'm not a woman because I've got a vagina, or because of my chromosomes (I don't even know whether I've got XX chromosomes, nobody's ever checked), or because of the balance of oestrogen/testosterone in my body. I'm a woman just because and exactly because I feel like a woman. The same thing is true for trans women, who are no less women than I am

Oh.my.god

I, I have no words.........

Therefore the evidence for those who underwent or are undergoing reassignment since 1989 is just not there.

Why would there be any difference? Keep in mind that the transwomen of today are still guys like Danielle Muscato. They did not all take puberty blockers. And if "reassignment" for this study means that the subjects had surgery, then that is not comparable to the definition of "transwoman" we are expected to agree with nowadays.

Also, why would there be any difference at all between biological males and other biological males?

It is the most logical thing for transwomen (males) to have the same crime rate as men (males). You might argue that socialisation makes a difference, but not all transwomen get the same socialisation, and not all men do, and it is not something that can be determined with a glance, so rather useless for safety purposes.

ItsAllGOingToBeFine thanks for that, appreciate it. While I dsiagree with you on how you define trans people's sexual identities (they get to decide that), I absolutely do not condone anyone pressuring anyone to fancy anyone else, for whatever reason. It is completely and utterly subjective. Not fancying amputees is not ableist, not fancying white people is not racist, not fancying trans people is not transphobic, not fancying women is not mysoginist. It is a completely spontaneous physical reaction which is not to be judged.

On the other hand, it's a tricky little bugger is attraction. Plenty of people have found their firmly established 'type' completely overturned by a special someone at some point in their lives! :P So best to take these things on an individual basis in my view.

Racoon I don't speak to rude people. Kindly stop addressing posts to me.

So lesbians can define themselves, but trans people can't. Interesting perspective on self-definition

Trans people can define themselves as trans. They can't define themselves as women because words actually mean things. I can't define myself as black or tall or ginger or straight or male and insist that the meanings of those words change. Lesbian is female same-sex attracted. You don't get to change that to transwoman attracted to women because it's 'easier'.

robin "bonding period chats" - well indeed definitely not! I too am struggling to imagine all these girl guides sitting around chatting about periods....

I mean it would be nice if they did...even better if they could do it in front of penis possessors!

I am extraordinarily bolshy but the closest I have ever come was a massive coffee time rant about the injustices of scented sanitary products to an audience of around 8-9 male physicists.

Get over yourself Lap I have not been rude to you. You are just unable to justify why you would call a heterosexual a lesbian. That's fine it just leaves you with egg on your face.

Surely what we need to do is address to roots of the concern. How can we ensure privacy for anyone who wants it. How can we ensure a culture where children feel empowered and its not just one or two individuals who dominate. In the adult world how can we make sure public toilets are safe (whats to stop a potential attacker from walking in to most of them anyway, no need to pretend to be trans)

This

The child in question is not a boy, she is a trans girl, so why keep referring to her as 'a boy' and what the fuck is this assumption that all boys/men are potential abusers and girls/women need a safe space to be protected from them. It saddens me that posters on here would look at my three lovely sons and not think what great lads they are, but look at them as potential sexual predators...good grief.

Well, they are, whether you like it or not.

Have you never used public transport or traveled by airplane? Because you would get treated like a potential criminal there, what with people controlling that you have paid for a ticket and aren't smuggling a bomb into the plane. Do you get hurt feelings about that, too?

I find it annoying that one is not allowed to take a bottle of water on a plane, but I'd never manage to act as offended about the implication that I am a potential terrorist as you act on behalf of your sons.

Annie and ChocChoc

Only 8 male-to-females committed violent crimes in the 30 year study period. It's unclear if any of these were sexual. There were no statistically significant differences found between transgender and cis subjects re violent crime for those who underwent gender reassignment since 1989.

Saying that transgender women are more likely to sexually assault women than cis women by virtue of the fact that they were born male, is a serious and ignorant twisting of the very limited data.

lelapaletute

I don't see anything in your post about relationships occurring in mixed prisons that result in pregnancies and babies being born to women in prison. Is that a situation that is acceptable, and a natural consequence of mixed prisons. What should happen to those babies?

Regarding mixed hospital wards, I can't see any justification from you for reversing the NHS's policy of removing mixed wards, just your statement that no one should mind and that a curtain should be enough privacy for anyone. I feel that the tone of your post about this is incredibly dismissive of anyone who has a reason for not wanting to be intimately examined or treated by someone of the opposite sex.

My child compares the feeling they have to someone who hates their nose. They feel like it is wrong, that's all they see, that's all they think about, they feel like everyone else is looking and judging them on it, they spend their whole lives trying techniques to minimise it, to try and accept it, but in some cases they can't and have surgery to correct it, only then do they feel like they are comfortable within themselves.

This may be a very simplistic way of looking at it, but in my child's case it isn't about a vague feeling inside, it's a very real form of body dysmorphia that we can no longer get non invasive help for.

Sadly the lines of what being transgender actually means are getting very seriously blurred (thanks to transactivists) and everyone is getting trampled on in the process

This thread makes me sad. The child in question is a girl who wants to do normal girl things like go to guides. Am astonished so many people have a problem with this- this child has enough on their plate dealing with the complex emotions that come with being transgender. So so saddening to read.

'I'd be appalled if my child was forced to undress in front of anyone, ever. Who the hell does that to kids?'

Er, schools, changing for PE and swimming?
Assuming you have kids where on earth do they go to school if there are private cubicles for everyone?

fish That sounds very hard. I wonder if the one things everyone on this thread could agree on is that transactivists are helping noone but themselves.