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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

999 replies

Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 09:49

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

OP posts:
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lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:15

So if they are heterosexual men, why have the become trans? You did just claim this was a result of homophobia... so why would they 'become' gay by transitioning?

user892 · 12/01/2017 12:16

Ah no - correction, I've found it in the discussion:-

"regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality"

but this was only of statistical significance for those who underwent reassignment before 1989.

Therefore the evidence for those who underwent or are undergoing reassignment since 1989 is just not there.

Also bear in mind that this study only looked at 191 male to female subject. A very small sample size indeed and it is completely unreasonable to extrapolate the results to apply to the wider trans population as a whole.

RacoonBandit · 12/01/2017 12:16

I didn't claim that at all Lap Confused

ChocChocPorridge · 12/01/2017 12:18

So if they are heterosexual men, why have the become trans? You did just claim this was a result of homophobia... so why would they 'become' gay by transitioning

homosexual - not homogenderal

sexuality and trans have very little to do with each other - well other than people using trans as gay conversion therapy..

SpartyMcsparticus · 12/01/2017 12:18

Oh please. There is no such thing as a male lesbian. Or a female penis. Or any of these absurd impossibilities that people who don't understand simple biology keep touting. I feel like Alice where words don't mean what they're supposed to and constantly change meaning. It's insane.

lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:19

Speaknowords Did you read my post in even a cursory way? I addressed all those points within it.

Allington · 12/01/2017 12:19

As the mother of a girl in Brownies (though not in the UK) I would be absolutely fine with this policy. I trust the leaders to use their judgement while they are in charge of my daughter, from letting her use a sharp knife, to take part in canoeing and boating, to not wander off while on trips, to light a fire and cook over it (Outdoor Cook badge) and lots of other activities that are way more dangerous than the remote possibility of being traumatised (or dominated) by being on camp with a transitioning girl.

TBH, I suspect DD would be more likely to traumatise the other girl with nosy and intrusive questions (though we talk often about NOT asking personal questions, but she hasn't got the hang of it yet...). But that wouldn't be intentional, she is a compassionate girl, and has experienced enough difficulties in her own life to be quite fierce about treating other people the way you'd want to be treated.

If you don't trust the leaders to make sensible judgement calls on sleeping/ washing arrangements in this remote possibility (and use their judgement in protecting the transitioning child), I suggest you withdraw your children.

VestalVirgin · 12/01/2017 12:19

If a boy is making girls uncomfortable when changing or toileting then that boy needs to be excluded and taught the error of his ways. The answer surely isn't to hide all female bodies from all males? That causes major problems further down the line.

Well, since society has not been willing to teach boys to not make girls uncomfortable at any point in written history, I would not trust this to change all of a sudden. Perhaps it would be claimed that it is done, but it would not be done. Girls would be told to just suffer in silence, that "boys will be boys."

Separate changing rooms and showers and bedrooms work. Not perfectly, but much better than any newly introduced policy would.

Considering that as opposed to the times in which Jane Austen wrote her novels, it is now considered perfectly okay for a woman to go on a date with a man without chaperone, but society does not manage to punish men for date rape, I am not very enthusiastic about removing more of the sex separation.

So far, the results of giving men more access to women seems to have been an increased risk of rape, with the conviction rates remaining low.

And while it has advantages for women to be able to socialise with men without it damaging their reputation; I see no advantage in allowing men into women's showers and changing rooms.

I would feel rather limited in my freedom if I was not allowed to meet with male friends, but I cannot recall ever having missed men in the women's showers or changing rooms.

Perhaps we should first make it legal for women and girls to be topless in public, before suggesting that women and girls should be forced to be naked in front of males in changing rooms and showers.

user892 · 12/01/2017 12:19

Also the small data set was "hampered by low statistical power and associated wide confidence intervals". This is very poor quality.

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 12/01/2017 12:19

I am hoping guides will rethink this one or at least alter the secrecy element.

They should absolutely not reconsider 'the secrecy element' if someone outed my child the consequences of that would be bloody awful.

Why should anyone have the right to know anyone else's private information.

If it's a secret and remains as such then it's no issue to you is it? You and your daughters won't know any different because the child will not be changing and showering where they/your dds can be seen. They will merely have a new child starting guides and who they will treat the same as everyone else, as it should be.

lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:21

RacoonBandit sorry you are right that was Midcenturymodern

Allington · 12/01/2017 12:21

Oh, and just as I wouldn't want the leaders to let other parents know confidential information about my daughter (she's adopted, and I have shared certain information with them so they can support her appropriately), I don't expect to get it about other children. Not my business.

ClaryIsTheBest · 12/01/2017 12:22

Well, since society has not been willing to teach boys to not make girls uncomfortable at any point in written history, I would not trust this to change all of a sudden. Perhaps it would be claimed that it is done, but it would not be done. Girls would be told to just suffer in silence, that "boys will be boys

Considering that as opposed to the times in which Jane Austen wrote her novels, it is now considered perfectly okay for a woman to go on a date with a man without chaperone, but society does not manage to punish men for date rape, I am not very enthusiastic about removing more of the sex separation.

So true. And seeing as trans people seem to automatically be regarded as the 'weaker' and 'less privileged' party? Well,,, I think that would be even worse in this case.

RacoonBandit · 12/01/2017 12:22

No worries Lap but you still cannot have a male lesbian.

ChocChocPorridge · 12/01/2017 12:23

Also the small data set was "hampered by low statistical power and associated wide confidence intervals". This is very poor quality.

Well, small, but comprehensive data set, what with it being every single transexual in the country in the time period...... you've got to start somewhere.

Sweets101 · 12/01/2017 12:24

Absolutely. And I can see what else will happen. Girls will start talking about being girls, about boobs, periods and the like and (as has happened elsewhere) they will be told to be trans-friendly and inclusive (and silence themselves). As has happened elsewhere they will learn that to be properly inclusive they must refer to themselves as 'cis' and accept that identity is about 'the feels' and a predilection for stereotypical activities and behaviours (and erase themselves as authentic women). I've been in younger trans spaces and I can tell you that these things happen and, especially if a transgirl is present amongst girls it becomes all about them.

^^This! This is why girls need girl only spaces.

lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:24

Itsallgoingtobefine*

Err, mate, I never 'insisted' that anyone should let anyone put their penises in ANYONE. Nor would I, ever, and the implication is utterly offensive. Where the hell did that come from? You should only have sex with people you fancy. If you don't fancy transwomen, then I wouldn't sleep with them if I were you, and don't let anyone tell you different! I don't fancy men with hairy chests. Does that make me 'hairist'? I think not.

Morphene · 12/01/2017 12:24

op I still can't match up:

As I am continually educating her and her siblings that what you wear, what you do, who you love is up to you and that gender is a load of bollocking. Gender is a religion I do not believe in and I don't want my children forcing them into tiny 'gender' box's to fit into the world.

with

If things continue my daughters will grow up never really experiencing women only spaces and that makes me very sad.

Surely these two statements are entirely mutually incompatible?

You would presumably welcome me into your women only space even though I am everything you hope to exclude, a domineering, natural leader, who tells people their idea is shit if I think it is without even a 'oh nice idea, but', and generally walk in and act like I own the place (arrogant fuck that I am), and am hyper-competitive about basically everything, just because I have a vagina.

But you would insist on rejecting someone who identifies will all things feminine, is quiet and reserved, polite and modest, brimming with empathy and compassion, respects the opinion of others, maybe even over their own (god, they probably even like babies), just because they have a penis.

One of the two of us is going to wreck the vibe and the confidence boosting intention of your women only space and it isn't the one with the penis.

VickyMirdle · 12/01/2017 12:25

Can anyone explain to me please what it means to feel like or identify as being a woman? What attributes and definitions can be used to determine whether one is a woman or not?

By the way, please give an objective answer, ie not a tautological humpty-dumptyism... "a woman is anyone who feels like a woman", as that way the whole concept of language breaks down if words can mean whatever the speaker wishes. As speakers of a shared language, words have to have common agreed on meanings as language goes on to infuse and influence everything else in society... social policy, politics, history, law etc.

Can anyone identify as a boiler engineer? A police officer? A first nations Canadian to access affirmative programs? As disabled to access extra exam support?

For all these things there are externally verifiable objective qualifiable characteristics and prerequesites. Why has biological sex suddenly been chucked by the wayside in favour of mushy subjective feelz? Women are still subjected to discrimination and violence on the basis of their objective biology. Whether you are a 25 yr old newly married women applying for a City job perceived as being a maternity risk, or a rural Nigerian girl fearful that Boko Haram is attacking the neighbouring village... biology shapes our outcomes and opportunties as women. "Identifying" otherwise doesn't mean shit in the face of oppression. Only by being able to specifically and objectively name our oppression and oppressors can we hope to dismantle the structures which constrain and subjugate us.

user892 · 12/01/2017 12:25

you've got to start somewhere.

But it cannot be extrapolated to apply to the wider population, certainly not in recent years - as attempted by some. This is the danger of misrepresenting research.

midcenturymodern · 12/01/2017 12:26

You do know lots of trans women are lesbians?

aka straight men.

It is just not as simple as saying people are pushing gay children down the trans route due to homophobia

No. Autogynephilia is another factor but gay conversion is a huge issue. It's really taken of in the bible belt and has obviously been around in Iran since the '80s when people realised getting your dick cut off saved you from having your head cut off. It's not a coincidence that a country where you get executed for being gay but not being trans has the second highest rate of sex re-assignment surgery in the world. (The highest being Thailand, which, lets face it, has a huge prostitution problem and is spiritual home of the shemale fetishist)

lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:27

Racoon Well, terminology. You have transwomen who fancy women/transwomen, transwomen who fancy men/transmen, transmen who fancy women/transwomen, and transmen who fancy men/transmen. And so forth. It's just a lot easier to say 'lesbian', and everybody knows exactly what I mean.

Satansbanana · 12/01/2017 12:27

The child in question is not a boy, she is a trans girl, so why keep referring to her as 'a boy' and what the fuck is this assumption that all boys/men are potential abusers and girls/women need a safe space to be protected from them. It saddens me that posters on here would look at my three lovely sons and not think what great lads they are, but look at them as potential sexual predators...good grief.

Morphene · 12/01/2017 12:28

vestal I am all in favour of freeing the nipple!

midcenturymodern · 12/01/2017 12:29

It's just a lot easier to say 'lesbian'

It really is just so effortful to give a modicum of respect by allowing lesbians to define themselves