Not cut out to be a mother

[sailorcherries]

Posting here for traffic, at my wits end.

My DS is 6 and has never slept through the night. Not once. He is also the worst self soother in the world.

During the day he is happy to sit upstairs/downstairs on his own while I potter about but at night time WWIII breaks out regularly.

Despite trying everything (sit in his room and gradually move out the door; sit in my room and return him reassuringly; sit in my room and return him without speaking etc) he will refuse to sleep. He cries, gets out of bed, refuses to talk, scratches himself and makes himself sick. I have tried for months and nothing works. He is upset, I get frustrated and upset - I don't smack etc but let him know his behaviour is not acceptable and tell him that there is consequences the next day (tv time/games cancelled, grounded etc).
In the end I end up sitting near his door and he then falls asleep; after 2 hours of screaming and tantrums. If I sit near his door to begin with he will be quiet but won't settle for at least an hour.

Regardless of when he goes to bed he will wake 3-4 times for no apparent reason, come and find me, and then wake me to take him to bed.

I finally went to the dr and his suggestion was that DS didn't need as much sleep (as nothing suffers through lack of it) and to put him to bed later. This has not addressed the issues at bed time whatsoever.

What is wrong with me? Am I that shit a parent that I can't get the basics right? Will I fuck it up with the next? Is there something wrong with my DS? What the bloody hell do I do? Bed time brings me to tears every single night.

Sadly I have lots of experience, my eldest DS is 15, youngest DS 10. Both have ASD/ADHD and so we've not had an unbroken night for 15 years.However, it did get better once I threw out the rule book!

First I would advise keeping a diary for at least two weeks, you can find guidelines for sleep diaries online. Both my boys are extremely bright academically, but by Year 3 it became apparent that mainstream would not work - I tell you this as so many schools and GPs are still stuck on "can't be ASD as they are too bright/make eye contact/have friends blah blah blah"

If your DS school has a Home School Link Worker they can be a useful resource in how to approach your GP to request an assessment.

For sleep, most success came with an audiobook called "the rabbit who wants to go to sleep" plus a sensory toy that beams a starry sky effect to the ceiling. That way you have the double effect of auditory and visual winding down plus they have a night light. A microwaveable hot water bottle is another sensory comfort (Amazon have a BagPuss one!)
If you can fit a rocking chair into the bedroom, you would at least be comfortable and able to feed baby whilst you trial new methods.

Both my boys are on melatonin, however that only helps with initial sleep and they still wake up during the night. They appear to only need 4-5 hours a night and do loads of sport/exercise too. There is lots of trial and error involved and I won't lie and say it was easy, but we have survived sanity (relatively) intact. Most importantly, trust your instincts and follow through on the ASD assessment. Good Luck.

Have you tried getting him a weighted blanket ? Its supposed to soothe and comfort children into thinking they are been held or something , it does work though

The thing which is unusual to me is not necessarily that he wakes, it's that he's six and yet he won't settle without you.

Note that I'm NOT saying you've done anything wrong here. Blimey, I did everything "wrong" if you listen to the naysayers and the books, and yet, DS was happy to go to sleep alone and stay in his room awake and alone from about 4.

By six, I'd expect most children to understand the desire and need for their parents not to be involved in parenting them at all hours of the night, and be willing to entertain themselves. Perhaps not perfectly, perhaps not every night without issue, but mostly, and certainly not every night. That is what's concerning/unusual to me about your post, and again, I'm not saying that it's something you've done, it's something to investigate/probe further/insist on help with because it's (IMO) not normal.

Couple of thoughts. Have you tried explaining to him that you'd love to sit with him but you have things to do? Perhaps do some particularly noisy housework while he's going off to bed so that he can hear you are physically present but not directly with him? Could you work up to this? Like instead of sitting by his bed, start sitting in his room but not near the bed. Then onto the landing. And take regular breaks to go to the toilet or some other urgent need he'll understand but with the security that you'll be back? This was something which helped my DS when he was 3 and his bedtimes were absolutely similar. I would tell him I needed a wee and go for about 5 minutes. Then I'd tell him I needed a poo and be gone for 30 minutes, sometimes I chanced it and waited longer. Quite often, when I came back he'd fallen asleep waiting for me. It seemed like he just wanted to know I'd be back. After this I had to promise that I'd check on him when I went to bed and then at some point that stopped too.

Second. Could it be a sensory thing? What about trying a weighted blanket? They are expensive to buy but you could pick up a floor rug or a heavy adult's coat and place it over his normal duvet, or even just layer a few covers/clothes over him to see if it helps. If it does help, it might be worth investing in a proper one. White noise as mentioned might also help with sensory issues.

I'm going to disagree
I'd hesitate to say there was something abnormal about this behaviour. You say his teachers have no concerns about him. He is just showing an intense need for you to be there. It's unreasonable but children can be weird like that. Meet his needs in this and eventually he should outgrow it. Don't worry about "proper bed times" if it's possible, get some me time whilst he is at school.
He sounds like a really intelligent child and perhaps he notices and tries to understand far more about the world than other 6 year olds could. His mind is probably going at top speed processing all the possible changes coming with a new sibling.
I'm no childcare expert ( apart from having 6 - all grown up now) so it's just an opinion.
Your his Mum, the expert in this, go with the advice that feels right for you.

sailorcherries 'Not cut out to be a mother' I am sure you are cut out to be a mother, and you are under massive pressure.

"Regardless of when he goes to bed he will wake 3-4 times for no apparent reason, come and find me, and then wake me to take him to bed."

This must be so hard.

My dd was a bad sleeper and had to hvae one of us with her to go to sleep. She then woke in the night and came in our bed for years. It was very tiresome and as we were adopting I really wanted her to stop. Amazingly, miraculously, she did stop before our son arrived, so take heart!

My dd has dyspraxia and has almost exactly the same issues/quirks you have mentioned with your ds, she is also a very high achiever in school. She would never manage to fall asleep on her own and seemed to survive on very little sleep unless she was right beside me. Several years ago I took her to the Dr, who recommended (as a mother who had a similar problem with her dd) sleep CD's. You can get them on Amazon etc, they are guided relaxations read like a bedtime story, we have loads of different ones and she still uses them every night. My dd is 11 now and I've never had a problem with her falling asleep since the first time we used them. It's not a complete cure for her other issues but I do find the better slept she is, the better she deals with things through the day. xx

sailorcherries I apologies if you have tried any of my ideas.

"Bed time brings me to tears every single night."

OK, maybe you need to find a way of disengaging a bit, you need to relax as much as you can and calm down for bed times.

I would really invest in a good book called How to talk so children listen and listen so children talk and then I would try and chat to ds and see how to proceed.

In this book one of the ideas is to ask the child what they want to do in situations and to get them to come up with ideas. Ask and give lots of time for ideas, get some brainstorming going and then decide on one that would work for you.

I am really not a big reader, so the fact I have read any books is a miracle.

In your shoes I would be direct. Don't mention the baby, just say...

"Mummy is so tired, I've been working very hard this week. I would like to get to bed a bit earlier today, how could we do that (after you read 'How to talk so children listen and listen so children talk').

If your son is really stuck you could come up with some ideas but give him plenty of time to have ideas, or give a bit of an idea and let him elaborate on it.

EG
Would he consider a sticker chart with a reward at the end? If he can stay in his room for most of the night he gets a sticker. It will only work if he wants to do it.

Could he go on the trampoline (if you have one) or get a mini trampoline or do some exercises before bed so be feels physically tired?

Instead of going to his room at 9pm and being there till nearly midnight could you start by keeping him up till midnight or 1am and let him tell you he is tired and work from there.
If he gets up in the night then keep him up till he asks to go to bed. It is exhausting but it sought of worked with ds who has never been a great sleeper. Eventually he was sleeping through for 4 or 5 hours it is the most he can manage.

Arlene that sounds like a great idea.

OP I know my dd, who is now 12, had real issues with anger when she was about 6 or 7. She has autistic tendencies.

We used this workbook together...

What to Do When Your Temper Flares: A Kid's Guide to Overcoming Problems with Anger (What-to-Do Guides for Kids)

It was quite helpful.

I notice they have a similar book for sleep. This book What to Do When You Dread Your Bed: A Kid's Guide to Overcoming Problems with Sleep (What-to-Do Guides for Kids)

If you think the night upset is led by fear or anxiety but your ds cannot explain why it is, can you get him some ways to cope with this specifically. This is a similar workbook I think...

What to Do When You Worry Too Much: A Kid's Guide to Overcoming Anxiety (What-to-Do Guides for Kids)

I've not read any except the anger one, but I think all may be interesting.

There are also story books about dealing with anger or sadness, they are probably a bit young for him but you can look here, we do have some of them. My ds is 6 and we did read them with him about 18 months ago.

www.tracemoroney.com/books.html

Good luck. I am really not suggesting you read all these books, pick what seems best to you.

has anyone tried the supper nanny method and did it work?

Came on the say that the sleep thing is only one issue here. See now that last few posts agree with me. The things you describe especially the deep scratching are part of ASD as is sleep difficulties. This has absolutely nothing to do with your parenting. Actually you sound eternally patient and loving. Your ds needs an assessment. Go back to the Gp or maybe he can have it done through school. List all the things eg the emotional stuff, the focusing on one or two subjects, the scratching the constant crying. Don't focus so much with them on the sleep as that becomes the issue and the other areas are missed. This is extremely difficult for you. But remember your ds is still the same boy with a diagnosis or not. But a diagnosis with get him help. Someone mentioned melatonin which can be used to aid sleep. But first of all an assessment. Don't hold back. Give all information. You are doing nothing wrong. Your ds has definite difficulties. Meantime l would accept he needs you to help him sleep and do whatever it takes to make life easier.

Op this is going to sound a little bit bonkers, well actually a lot bonkers, my ds (now 14) has had issues with sleeping for years, he just doesnt need it, it doesnt affect his behavior regardless.

I have tried everything, white noise, kids cds, sleep hygiene, the sneaking out of the room, co sleeping, I even tried piriton-when particularly sneezy in the summer, and nothing worked.

By around 8 years old I had practically lost the plot, I also had to co sleep with my ds2 who slept in my room from birth up until this bedtime revelation, around 2 years.

My friend who also has a non sleeping child, said look just don't fight it, he wont sleep, instead keep him entertained with out much input from yourself. Put a tv in his room, he can watch it until he falls asleep.
I thought she was mad, but I was willing to try anything, so I did.

I managed to get hold of a little tv/dvd combo flat screen thing, told him he had to keep the volume down, and gave him his harry potter dvds to watch. I put him in his room at 8.30 (unsurprisingly he couldn't wait to get in bed) he didnt come down, he didnt turn the volume up, he didnt try and trash the bathroom, he just chilled out in bed and watched tv, he was asleep by 10 when i went to bed, it was amazing.

He's still not a great sleeper now but back then i felt comfortable knowing that his brother could now sleep in the same room without being disturbed.

Btw he was diagnosed with adhd/asd 2 years later.

Sounds soul destroying OP. As you have tried so many things already I think keeping a diary and fighting with your GP for a referral is a good approach. Many children struggle to get to sleep (my dd included) but getting so upset he is sick or self harms is fairly extreme and you must be totally exhausted. It might be that some of the approaches for anxiety might work but if he has got into a pattern of fear about bedtime it might take more than a CD (although if that works fantastic).

Just wanted to pick up an earlier comment by KatieMoragsMum, Melatonin isn't generally expensive, where I live now it's an over the counter drug and I can buy a bottle of 60 for $10. I use it for jet lag and occasional insomnia. In the UK it tends only to be prescribed at consultant level especially for children because there are some safety concerns (little research into long term use by children). My nephew like many kids with AS has had it prescribed for many years as he struggles to get to sleep without it and drifts off easily with it. So it might help but you need the referral regardless. Oh and some children don't show the same behavioural issues at school as at home, nothing to do with parenting, just how they cope with different environments.

My boy with asd only now sleeps from around midnight till 6.

My girl who is in dx ASD goes off ok now (but was very hard work previously) but every night without fail comes into our bed. She is six. She also won't be on a different floor to an adult, someone must be there with her. We can do other things but must be on the same floor as her. She also will not go to the toilet alone. It is all anxiety driven.

My suggestion is to vacuum. I know, but bear with me! That way you are there, he can hear you, but you can't hear. (As much!) him. So by being there but not feeding his need for attention it might reassure him but also give him the message it is not his time with you he needs to sleep.

That sounds very good advice junebirthdaygirl and ScuttlbuttHarpy.

Please do speak to GP and get further help. I missed the scratching thing.

I was quite worried about getting dd assessed but in the end I just felt if she is on the spectrum or not, I just to know! She has also got better as she got older and is now a very different girl, the anger and upset still there but she is managing it better.

HorridHenryrule "has anyone tried the supper nanny method and did it work?" I used to love watching her programmes but as my dd has autistic tendencies and my ds is adopted I would not really touch Supernanny with a barge pole these days.

I think it may work better for non-'issue' kids.

My friend tried making the room really dark (which is a contented little baby book thing - another book I would not touch) and it helped her kids.

Some really great suggestions above, hope they help OP. Has he ever spent a night away from you, with a grandparent or aunt/uncle either in your home or theirs?

sorry OP, I have just seen that you already described how he gets on with other people and it doesn't really shed any light on a solution.

So, we managed a whole 3.5 hours before waking up. No reason for it whatsoever, no toilet needing or scary dreams or anything similar. He was just awake and I've been sat on the floor for half an hour reading these replies.

Generally he sleeps for about 3.5ish hours (normally half 10 until 2ish) and then it varies between waking in the next 2 hours before being fully awake 2ish hours after that, or waking every hour or so until 5am and then sleeping until half 7ish. And these times are almost down to a tee, within reason.

I'm going to look at some of the suggestions mentioned here, particularly bedtime cds and perhaps leaving him with a dvd (he does have one in his room and on some weekends, and during holidays) I put it on in the morning when he wakes to try and salave another hour or so sleep. I've always been reluctant to use it at night time as I worry about over stimulating him (ha!) and dislike the thought of it being left on all night.

Definitely also going to go back to the gp as he cannot sleep for more than a 3.5ish hour stretch at a time. If he needed to pee or something I'd understand but he just wakes up. I don't get annoyed or anything, simply wake up and take him to bed before plonking myself on the floor.

His anxiety seems to be centred around not being away from me and he does find that hard. At bath time he'd still prefer me to sit on with him and if I'm busy he must talk to me the entire time to know I'm there. During the day, while not as bad, if he's alone for say 15 minutes he'll seek me out 'just to know where I am'. He also didn't like going with people and frequently says he doesn't want to be with x, y, z while at the same time becoming more independent and wanting to spend time with gran/auntie etc if he knows where I'll be the entire time. But once again he'll skip off merrily to clubs and school.

Not necessarily a solution, but can I put in a good word for SparkleStories.com - it's got lovely stories for a range of ages, including a sleepy time series. They have a few free sample stories, and a free podcast, but otherwise you have to pay for them, but for the quality of content you get, I think it is worth it. You can set their app to run continuously until he falls asleep. There are hundreds of stories on there, mostly very calming rather than stimulating.

OP, sleep deprivation is once of the most debilitating things ever.

My daughter went through this for a while. She was getting very anxious because she didn't know how to 'go to sleep'. She thought there was some method that the rest of us used to sort of switch ourselves off and that she alone didn't know how to do it. It helped to explain to her that nobody can make themselves sleep on demand. I had been saying things like 'lie down and go to sleep' and she couldn't and it worried her.
It helped to change the emphasis to bedtime behaviour and tell her that she was not in charge of her feelings but she was in charge of her behaviour. Good bedtime behaviour means lying down, being quiet, head on pillow, eyes closed....and then I used a lot of the same techniques as bertiebots so that I could pop in and out and praise every time I came back into the room and saw good bedtime behaviour. 'It doesn't matter if you can't sleep, it is still really good to rest and you are doing all the right things...'
We also loaded story cds onto an iPod so that she had something to listen to. I like to listen to the radio if I can't sleep.
You have had a lot of good advice here but only you will know which things might work for your ds. You are probably feeling as anxious as he is about this. It helped me to play a small internal game with myself so that whatever dd did, I would only respond with a positive statement like 'Even though you don't want to go to bed, you have put your pyjamas on'. It sounds (& can make you feel a bit odd) but it gave me back the feeling that I was in charge and that really helped because my dd was not the only one feeling upset and out of control. A pp recommended 'How to Talk so Kds will Listen' & I really second that. It gave me lots of ideas on how to keep up the constant stream of positive comments when I felt like yelling.
It also helped me to imagine all the other mums all over the world going through exactly the same thing. You are really not alone or failing. Good luck.

I'd recommend the book "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" by Marc Weissbluth. He's pretty hardline about putting them to bed and leaving them to get to sleep on their own but it sounds like your boy needs that if he's been waking like this his whole life. He's not learned how to fall asleep on his own, I think that's the main problem.

Have u tried a cd on for him to fall asleep to like a Roahl Dahl story or something he really like ? My nephew has this at bedtime as he's still very restless and it really works (turn it down really quiet so he has to lay still to here it)

I second going back to the GP; don't try to put a brave face on it. I've found that GPs can think you are being neurotic and overreacting, when the opposite is usually true. My DD is nearly 6 & never sleeps through, we allow her to get into our bed in the night and she goes back to sleep. She also takes about an hour to get to sleep (never before 9) and that is with one of us sitting with her and reading (our own books) until she falls asleep. We read to her before it's time to settle down. She has some writing/reading/coordination difficulties, but is unusually emotionally aware and picks up on really small nuances in people's behaviour and this is an anxiety inducing combination for her at the moment.

Yes back to the gp and ask for a referral to Camhs. My dd aged 9 has severe meltdowns at bedtime and is prescribed melatonin which helps enormously. She does have other issues/diagnoses as well but if she sleeps and goes to bed calmly it helps everyone in the family.