To think it's actually a lie when argue that suicide is always a selfish act, that others get hurt by it?

[ChristmasFuckOff]

Firstly, MNHQ as you always comment on these threads - this isn't somebody making a post about being suicidal. I'm not. Dunno why not because I probably should be and maybe I will be later this week but right now...no.

I'm sick of all the stuff out there saying how if somebody commits suicide, there will be people devastated. That it's always selfish. Often people who are suicidal say they don't want to be a burden, is that not actually a reasonable argument?

I think a lot of people out there, with friends and family, can't seem to understand there are others out there who literally don't have good relationships. So it doesn't affect anyone else.

I've been suicidal, properly suicidal, many times. Have you? How can you discount my life experience? Have you experienced it?

when I cut my wrists I was absolutely sure I was doing everyone a favour. I was a troublesome child, a terrible girlfriend, a tolerated friend.
Three decades On? Thank God I was too innocent to do it properly. The boyfriend was terrible, my friends weren't tolerating me and my parents think I'm the best thing since sliced bread. My DH & dc rather like me too.
It's not selfish. It's altered thinking. My trigger was ASD.

gene9 again, saying there are people who have nothing in their life who have anything worth living for is damaging. How do you think that will help someone who is suicidal?

For a long time my dog was my only reason to live. I looked at her one day and realised I had to live for her. I got help and now I have a full life and a good career. That may sound like nothing to you, but you dont get to decide what is and isnt living for.

haveacupoftea
its different for different people. Some people have a lot of choice and control and others do not. Some people have much insight into their illness and some people are completely unaware.
For example with me when i was depressed i did have some insight and it was about re connecting with life and reaching out and my choice to do that.
But equally i used to work on a psychiatric ward and some people genuinely are ill to the extent that they have very little control over what they are doing. Thats why they had been sectioned in the most part, because they were a danger to themselves and could not chose not to be because they were so ill.

Yes cockacidalmaniac I have been hospitalised after a suicide attempt.

haveacupoftea
Unfortunately you're wrong. Telling people with chronically Illnesses how you got through it by looking at how your dog would cope is so intensely patronising.

To anyone who is suicidal I would say, give yourself a few days and try to remember what connects you to life. What gives you that pure joy?

Well intentioned this may be but I'm with Maniac in that statements like this often trivialise mental illness and make it sound like suicide is a lifestyle choice rather than a symptom of being unwell. I don't for a second believe that that was your intention.

I feel that people who genuinely believe suicide is selfish don't fully understand that mental illness is just that, an illness. Given the choice no one would want to feel like they need to end it all to make the pain stop. It's a very severe symptom of a potentially deadly illness (or illnesses). Until people start realising that then the unhelpful comments about how selfish suicide is will continue.

I don't really understand telling a suicidal person to get help.
If I want to kill myself why would I go and get someone to stop me?

When I, one day, do myself in, it will be very organised and final. I will sort out all my personal affairs and leave everything tidy. I will then kill myself using a very effective way. Not messing about with suicidal gestures like wrist cutting which doesn't work.

As PP's have said, while suicide is not intended to be a selfish act - often the intention is the exact opposite - I think it is because of the absolute havoc it wreaks.

I have been suicidal. From my mother's sudden death when I was 10 until I was around 19/20 I struggled massively with suicidal urges. I was told when I was in my early twenties that what I thought of as being happy was, in fact, severe depression. I just don't recognise it due to having spent so much of my life with the sort of depression so bad it generally renders people totally unable to function.

However, even when actively suicidal I felt suicide was an inherently selfish act - possibly the Catholic guilt complex working overtime. I was aware that (however wrong [I thought?] they were to do so) there were people who liked & loved me & who would thus be distressed by my death. I had my younger sister to bring up & the house to [help] keep running generally. Anybody witnessing my death/finding my body/attempting to save my life would be traumatised by the experience. Living in Inner London I'm well aware that most tube drivers who experience a One Under will, despite the help & support they receive, leave their job soon after due to the trauma.

My father's best friend committed suicide when I was a toddler. I have patchy memories from the age of about 9 months old & clear ones from 18 months onwards thanks to my eidetic memory. I was traumatised enough as a toddler to wipe every trace of him from my memory. My father is still upset by it now & occasionally troubled by the question everyone asks when someone they know kills themdelves - "could I have done something to stop them?"

I had to call the coastguard out this summer when a man jumped into the Thames off Hungerford Bridge. I only caught his jump out of the corner of my eye, but as I rang the coastguard I had to watch him in the water to be able to explain where exactly he was. Mercifully, on hitting the water - or perhaps on his way down - he'd changed his mind so he was trying to swim & was clearly a strong swimmer; & one of the Thames lifeboat stations is close to the bridge: between the two things they were able to effect a rescue rather than a recovery. But even that was deeply distressing. (And people were filming it on their phones rather than using their phones to call for help. I mean, disgusting to film at all, but that they didn't even try to get him help before they started capturing footage of what they were expecting to be someone's death... it really was sickening... if I could have got away with it I would have thrown all their phones into the sodding river...)

Chicken, you're going to get the thread pulled.
You also don't sound very well. Honestly.

Yikes I tell people to get help as I have been there. It was a clusterfuck at the time but I'm not there anymore. Life is not a static thing and an action now effects everyone around you now and those you could now in the future.

To be fair I had pets and in my bad times they needed feeding so I got up and maintained a routine. Don't underestimate the effect of feeling needed by animals

Cock, btw for a while I thought you were talking to me

I think it's important to differentiate between the effect of pets on depression versus active suicidal ideation.
When I've been very, very unwell, the thought of my children haven't affected my thoughts or actions. I don't think whether I had pets or not would. There is just no rational thought there.

I have a rescue cat to give me a purpose whilst I drag through the next couple of decades.

Honestly I just put on a good front, like many people. I mean ffs we are all idiots sitting in traffic jams to sit at our desks to make money to buy houses we are never in. Getting drunk and looking forward to the evening, weekend, holiday, we are all wishing our lives away to some extent.

Sorry, Tomorrow. I didn't mean you.

Seeing comments that there are concerns this thread could be pulled shows it is very difficult to have open and honest conversations about suicide. The fear that a conversation could 'encourage' suicide is a massive issue.

This conversation might be the only opportunity someone has to discuss it and see other perspectives. I understand the site have a duty of care but I hope they don't pull it

I'm another one who thinks it's more selfish of people to expect someone to hang around, suffering, because that is easier for them to ignore and continue on with their own lives.

Mental/emotional pain is some of the worst around, and yet we don't yet have any real, effective treatment for it... no morphine drip, no sedatives to stop the (figurative) gasping for breath. You just suffer invisibly until you can't any more.

For that reason, I can never condemn someone suicidal as selfish, but I do think they are deluded if they discount the effect it does have on other people, which in some cases can be extreme.

However, I also think that suicide can become a sort of automatic, default way of thinking (I've been there), and that this can prevent you from searching around for other, very real options out of a way of life that feels intolerable.

I'm hoping that this thread won't be pulled as long as methods or suicide advocation aren't mentioned.
I feel it's very important to discuss things like this.

Most discussions re suicide are "suicide is bad mkay"

But I know that MNHQ have formulated their policy in discussion with the Samaritans.

When I was younger, I was suicidal. Every day at school was suffering, every evening and weekend at home was suffering. I left my home town to go to university thinking it may cure my misery, but I simply brought my suffering with me. One night I lay in bed contemplating whether or not I should kill myself. Not "I wish this would just end" suicidal, but "so, should I end it then?" suicidal. The only thing that stopped me was accepting the impact that my suicide would have on others.

I eventually I got help, which took the edge off the misery (though it didn't cure it) and I stumbled on through life for many years until I learned that I probably have ASD. Now, with maturity and a completely new understanding of who I am, life is OK. It's often very draining, occasionally terrifying and generally confusing but I'm mostly content and even happy sometimes. I am (slowly) learning to love and let myself be loved. I now live my life.

I will not tell anyone else how to deal with their own pain, and certainly will not say "just keep going, things will get better". However, for me a belief that suicide is a deeply selfish act was what kept me alive and, ultimately, is what has allowed me to end my suffering in a way that adds to other people's lives rather than taking something away that can never be returned.

I feel sad that at present MH issues are generally not taken seriously. It's been a long time since I was there but I know a large swathe of my life is so black that all my memories from them are almost gone. It's too painful.

Until MH problems are treated compassionately as illnesses, and are not seen as personal weaknesses, too many people will be lost to suicide.

It's not selfish & some religious nutters think you won't go to heaven. The God I believed in, wouldn't further hurt a human at their darkest hour.
I do know, nobody EVER commits suicide when they're happy.
To feel so desperate as to end your life means you're thought processes arn't where they should be, in order to function/live 'normally'.
People arn't thinking 'normally' or rationally when they end of their life.
They are desperate, hurt, struggling & want the pain to stop ( physically or mentally)
I'm sure most people who have ended their life,or considered it thought it would be easier, if they simply were not living any longer.
It's not the sign of a healthy mind, I'm sure they are loved and love just as equally their family/friends.
Mental Health and awareness of Mental Health is much more supported than 30/40 years ago. It is NOT a choice whether we suffer it or not.
This particular time of year, with dark nights, cold weather, lack of sunlight & warmth and up coming festivities makes a lot more people anxious, worry and sad.
You could call a number of helplines anonymously, you could visit your GP, you could have a look online for support groups.
I really hope you do, you have taken the first step by writing on here.
Please know your worth, however you're feeling at the minute, the sun will shine for you again, you just might need a little help to feel it