To think it's actually a lie when argue that suicide is always a selfish act, that others get hurt by it?

[ChristmasFuckOff]

Firstly, MNHQ as you always comment on these threads - this isn't somebody making a post about being suicidal. I'm not. Dunno why not because I probably should be and maybe I will be later this week but right now...no.

I'm sick of all the stuff out there saying how if somebody commits suicide, there will be people devastated. That it's always selfish. Often people who are suicidal say they don't want to be a burden, is that not actually a reasonable argument?

I think a lot of people out there, with friends and family, can't seem to understand there are others out there who literally don't have good relationships. So it doesn't affect anyone else.

I am 98% sure my family would be fine. Obviously they wouldn't enjoy it but they would move on. Be nice for them not to even have the hassle of speaking to me anymore.

I have a partner but it can't go anywhere.

You are in denial if you think your suicide would leave this person unaffected.

I think until you've been actively suicidal, you can't imagine the place that you find yourself in. It's nothing to do with selfishness; when you feel that hopeless and bereft you can only think of ending the pain. Nothing else exists.
There's too many people who judge without the experience.

I'm not suicidal tonight, I'm contemplating that's all.

You are suicidal, you're just building up to it.

I don't know. I found a friend of mine who killed himself in his car. He was 19. It was 27 years ago and it still affects me now. I still feel guilty that he didn't know how much we loved him so decided to take his own life.

Everyone I've known who committed suicide (1 person very well, one quite well and 4 vaguely) has left a trail of devastation. You can't know the effects on those left behind until you do it - and then of course. you will never know.

You can argue about the selfishness or otherwise, but I don't believe anyone can truly know the effect it will have.

With all due respect, I'm not suicidal. Thinking about suicide is known as ideation, it doesn't mean you are going to attempt anything. Not at all.

Yes, I do think it must be awful for those who have to find the remains.

I really am struggling to see how anyone can call it selfish?? It's just so, so sad. To be in a position, where you think your own death is the best solution to whatever is happening.
Having never been in that position, I can't for certain call it from authority but, selfish is the last thing I'd call it

My cousin took his own life in awful circumstances. My other cousin found him, and 10 months later, she done exactly the same thing.
Suicide is brutal. Fucking hellishly brutal. Every time I think about what happened it's like I've smacked my head into a concrete wall... the pain and shock is that raw and shocking 3 years on. It's fucking horrible!!

Cousin 2 had issues in the past and had spoken about doing this kind of thing before. Cousin 1 had not. I often wonder if cousin 2 hadn't had to deal with the sheer horror of finding cousin 1 in those circumstances, she may still be here. Who knows.

What I do know is suicide is death through mental illness. In the same way death by cancer is death through physical illness. If you got a cancer diagnosis then you would do everything in your power to treat it and fight it to the end. Until you were cured and rid of it, and death from it was no longer a threat... why on gods earth don't people treat mental illness in the same way?
There is too much stigma, too much shame and nowhere near the level of support in the health service required to support and manage this beast.

Consider this. In Northern Ireland., since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, more people have died by suicide than died during the troubles. WTF??? And it is still a taboo?????? The mind boggles

I think being suicidal can be the opposite of selfish in the suicidal person's mind. They can get to the stage where they think other people would be better off if they weren't around.

I see your point OP; you can think about suicide without being actively suicidal. When I've been very unwell, it's sometimes been the only comfort to me, the only control I had over my life. It sounds very strange, unless you've actually been there.

But going back to what I said before; if someone is in pain and really can't bare to carry on then surely it is wrong to make them carry on just for the sake of other people? Is it not selfish of other people to expect them to carry on and be in pain every day just so they won't get hurt/distressed at losing them or finding their body?

With all due respect, you are suicidal and you are in denial about it. You say you may feel like killing yourself later this week. You are discussing suicide not in terms of people who do it but in direct relation to why your current situation makes suicide the logical next step. I am sorry but I refuse to enable you to rationalise this by colluding in your denials.

I've felt like that too, AVirgin

And yes, there is help for people with mental illness and suicidal feelings.

I think it all comes down to how you define "selfish" - if you go by thinking of yourself and not others it's not technically true as being mentally ill can make you genuinely believe others will be better off without you. But ultimately it is selfish in the sense the person is out of their pain - but in most cases causes a lifetime of emotional pain for their loved ones.

It does affect people. As health professionals who have never known the people we meet, who try and fail to commit suicide, we are affected deeply as we try to save their lives. Sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing. Never knowing, until it's too late, whether the person really wanted to commit suicide or whether they had 'cried for help' and it went too far. Sometimes being thanked profusely for intervening. Other times knowing that there will be another time. And we are the strangers.

The problem with that, GardenGeek, is that you add to the guilt that someone with severe mental illness is feeling. You're also manipulating them too.

They can get to the stage where they think other people would be better off if they weren't around.

I think that's it. You genuinely believe you're doing everyone a favour if you kill yourself.

And yes, there is help for people with mental illness and suicidal feelings.

Like what?

What if medication doesn't work? Talking therapy doesn't work?

What else is there after that?

It's delusional thinking, obviously. It just feels very real at the time. Selfishness/unselfishness do not come into it. You exist in a place outside of those concepts, all that exists is the pain.

And yes, there is help for people with mental illness and suicidal feelings

Sometimes there really isn't. Let's not kid ourself here. My own experiences within our poor excuse for a MH system reinforce my view.

Taking about suicide is being closed down here; nobody is advocating it or discussing methods. It's all part of the stigmatisation of MH problems.
It's an important thing to discuss. Those of us who have been there, and probably will be again, should be listened to.

Like what?

What if medication doesn't work? Talking therapy doesn't work?

What else is there after that?

Lots of illnesses are unresponsive to intervention. Sometimes the illness is too far gone and nothing will work. That doesn't mean the help doesn't exist. I didn't say there was a cure. I was responding directly to OP's comment that there was no help.