To think it's actually a lie when argue that suicide is always a selfish act, that others get hurt by it?

[ChristmasFuckOff]

Firstly, MNHQ as you always comment on these threads - this isn't somebody making a post about being suicidal. I'm not. Dunno why not because I probably should be and maybe I will be later this week but right now...no.

I'm sick of all the stuff out there saying how if somebody commits suicide, there will be people devastated. That it's always selfish. Often people who are suicidal say they don't want to be a burden, is that not actually a reasonable argument?

I think a lot of people out there, with friends and family, can't seem to understand there are others out there who literally don't have good relationships. So it doesn't affect anyone else.

Trying to read between the lines about the MNHQ and Samaritans "line". I am frankly fucking amazed.

Does MNHQ step into threads about someone contemplating abortion, which however you slice it is the taking of another human's life? Who does not get to choose. No, the woman's rights over her own body are, for the most part regarded as paramount, and I've yet to see such person described as mentally ill.

Not so the OP who's been patronised something shocking here.

By the way, I am pro-choice.

I agree echt. People who go to dignitas are perfectly sane and rational.

Is the person always selfish? No.

Will people be devastated? Usually, yes.

I do find those who commit suicide in such a way where innocent people can just happen to see it selfish though. Imagine if a poor child saw it - it would ruin their lives potentially.

I do have such sympathy for those who feel ending it is the only option.

I do also understand as I knew a girl with a rare disorder that meant she needed operations several times a year. She also had sleep apnea due to her condition.

She decided in her early 20s to no longer seek treatment and died last year. Gutting for her family and friends but I completely support her right to do so.

I think that when my mum decided to die it was the bravest thing she ever did. She was a clever, witty, pretty lady totally overwhelmed by her illness and loneliness.she was from a large family and only her sister came to her funeral. I remember clearly that a blackbird sang for her as she was buried. A joyful noise for her departing. I do so wish she could have been happy.

My dad was certainly not selfish, he was desperate and saw it as the only way out. My dad jumped in front of a train, we met the driver at the inquest, he was devastated, kept saying how sorry he was. I wish my dad hadn't done it that way, I feel so bad for the driver and the knock on effects for him. And this is where I sound really selfish but I'm glad me or mum didn't find him if he'd chosen to do it another way

There is always someone to see death, be that in a controlled environment or an uncontrolled one, she node me that argument is poor.

I don't think sucide is selfish, it's a horrible illness and if we had adequate services that people could go to then I think the suicide rate would be lower, but it's not, people go to GP get given pills and wait months to see a mental health professional, they go to the hospital and get turned away because they where able to get to the hospital sontheir mental health is not deemed at crisis level... the systems dire and people die as a result.

Many people take their own lives as a result of mental illness.

Some have made a sane, rational choice which they consider to be the best solution for them.

I do always wonder about people who say it was a selfish act. I wonder how much of a support they were to the person who has died when they were alive?

Because, never mind suicide being a selfish act, to respond to somebody who has taken their own life by turning it around and saying 'This was a selfish act because it has hurt me' seems like the ultimate act of selfishness. It's all 'me, me, me, me' and about moving the act of suicide so that they are front and centre as the real victim rather than the person who has died. They would have rather they'd carried on in tremendous pain just to make them feel better or not have to face guilt. It makes the person who has died just a cipher who is responsible for them and their feelings and keeping them happy. It's all 'I don't care about your pain, now I'M in pain and my pain matters'. I understand that these feelings are normal as part of the process, but I have seen some people post on different threads who seem to have this feeling very persistently, especially on behalf of other people e.g. 'I can't believe they did that to our mother'.

I often get the feeling that the person who died must have faced a lot of that when they lived too. That their feelings and desires weren't important and made to feel that they should always be placed secondary to someone else's. Denial or negation of the importance of feelings is often cited as a big factor in the childhood development of personality disorders associated with high rates of suicide such as BPD. So sadly the tendency for some people close to those who've died to reduce the act to simply being one which affects them is both unsurprising and telling.

I agree completely Bill

I will start by saying that I don't include Dignitas/assisted suicide when talking about the below. Suicide due to chronic pain/terminal illness is something I think and hope many people understand.

Suicide due to any of many mental illnesses is not selfish. It appears that way to those on the outside because they cannot fathom the logic and they take it personally, almost as an insult I suppose. "Aren't we enough for you to live for?". Except, for those contemplating suicide this really often is the next logical step. It is rarely a spur of the moment decision.

My friend's father hung himself a few years ago, around this time of year. It was very methodical. He had done his research, written letters to loved ones. He went to work on his chosen day and did it there, once everybody had left. He knew his children would be travelling home from their various locations for Christmas together and had rationalised that it would be better if he wasn't there for it.

Obviously they wholeheartedly disagree. They were unsurprisingly devastated. While it had been acknowledged that Dad was a bit down, nobody realised how serious it was and I guess assumed he would snap out of it. They struggled with mental illness as a diagnosis and I think found it shameful almost which is unfortunate. I think the guilt for those left behind is the hardest thing to process. What could they have done differently?

It's horrible but it's not selfish. You have to be in a very dark place to think this is your solution.

For those on this thread who see no joy or hope in life, I hope you can find some strength to seek help or support. The bleak cycle of serious depression has it's own sad logic and is designed to keep you trapped. It's a horrible illness and one that people don't empathise with in the same way as they do with pretty much any other disease or condition.

Those who say "focus on the good things in your life" haven't yet grasped that for the depressed person there is no good. Just a whole load of emptiness. It's very sad.

Well put Bill

They way I see it is our natural instinct is to stay alive, we breathe without thinking or prompt. For someone to go against that shows just how painful living is for them. Yes it affects those left behind and those who discover the deceased but selfish? Nope

You can't have it both ways. If they don't want to be a burden, they must have relationships. Ask the families of people who have committed suicide. They don't think its a reasonable argument.
It is a selfish thing to do. Completely selfish. And those around them will be very hurt and very angry for a very long time. If someone is prepared for that, I guess they have the right to do it. But they can't expect anyone to forgive them for it. Ever.

Yy bill
At a low point years ago my psychiatrist told how awful it would be for my dc if I killed myself.
To me it was just another indication that I don't matter. Better for me to live a life of pain and suffering than for my dc to go through one serious traumatic event. Because I'm worthless. The bottom of the heap. I matter the least.
These are the mantras I live by. I probably won't kill myself but I do spend my life wishing I was dead and hoping something outside of my control will kill me.
I have spent my life taking on too much responsibility for other people's feelings. Years of therapy to try and realise some boundaries. But ultimately other people matter more than I do and that's the only rational reason for me to carry on.

Unless you've been actively suicidal, hazell, you really can't judge.

And good post, Bill.

Within mental health circles there is a school of thought that believes 'suicide' could / should actually be seen as a symptom of mental health problems in the same way that sadness, hallucinations, loss of appetite etc are. For some, mental health simply cannot get better despite the efforts of the patient, their family and mental health services. For these people the line between suicide as a symptom and a choice becomes blurred. Its a stance that is often rejected as it represents 'failure' by those who are supporting the patient butni think it's one with merit.

I do however believe that if even half as much money was poured into mental health as is into cancer then we would without doubt reduce the suicide rate for those who could get better. I'm not saying that cancer charities / treatment / research should get less but mental health really are their poor relations and it is an utter tragedy.

Ask the families of people who have committed suicide. They don't think its a reasonable argument.

Who is 'they'? I lost a family member to suicide, and you certainly don't speak for me

It's the ultimate in selfishness to make someone else's death all about you. It's not about you.

Cock

That's why I said it was my opinion. Which is as equally valid as yours.

Hazell Plot twist: it isn't about you.

I'm not sure it's selfish, but I have never heard of a suicide that hasn't left behind a trail of devastation lasting years. At one stage I knew more people who had died of suicide than natural causes (including accidents). Each one left a massive hole for others that is still there decades later.

I don't think it's ever a neutral act.

(My post was in response to the OP's post about there being no-one that would notice/care).

I'm not sure it's selfish, but I have never heard of a suicide that hasn't left behind a trail of devastation lasting years. At one stage I knew more people who had died of suicide than natural causes (including accidents). Each one left a massive hole for others that is still there decades later.

Then you haven't heard of unidentified decedents who committed suicide. They exist, and they exist in far greater numbers than you'd probably care to believe. No missing persons report that matches their profile. Seemingly no one looking for them.

To contradict Bill, somewhat!

MIL hung herself. She was ill. I found her, as she knew I probably would!

Now, I don't judge her for wanting out and, had Dignitas existed then, we probably would have helped her get there. But to say that the devastation felt by friends and family is selfish is beyond belief!

For months DH had fleeting wishes to drive into motorway bridges, he hurt so much, he couldn't stop playing out in his head how long it would have taken her to die, how painful that would have been, how much she must have wanted to take it back. Wondering why he had failed her so badly, detailing just how guilty he was for not stopping her.

He also hated her for what she did, for how that devastated the whole family, for how she timed it so I would be the one who found her, the absolute cessation of life as we all knew it. Then he felt guilty for hating her, as he knew how much pain she had been in, how bleak her prognosis was. It took him years to get over all of those conflicted feelings. To be able to forgive himself enough to feel human again.

Yet all of his feelings are absolutely normal for someone who has experienced any traumatic loss. Utterly normal!

To dismiss the feelings of suicide survivors is crass, at best.

Suicide is one of the bleakest of acts. Anyone contemplating it to relieve themselves or their loved ones of a burden must be in a whole world of pain that most people cannot begin to imagine.

But having experienced suicide of a loved one I can tell you that I imagine that pain al ot. For months it was all I did. For years it has floated around the back of my mind, resurfacing at every single happy moment in our lives. Guilt, anguish, anger... all crop up and threaten the smallest of happy moments.

I am not being selfish when I say that, however much pain she was in, I would rather she had not hung herself!