Breaking : possible terror attack in Berlin

[MagicMary1]

twitter.com/ap/status/810931083944534016

This is so sad.

Sandrina I think you'll find that the UK (those that are tasked with keeping us safe anyway), understand only too well what's going on. The French are beginning to see it, but many of the other EU Member States are firmly in the ostrich position about this, including Belgium, even after the bombings at Zaventem and Maelbeek.

The EU is a version of communism, still disguised pretty well from some people's understanding

It scream communism to me but many people do not understand what this means. Gisella Stuart understands this - she understands the nature of Federalist EU and why we must avoid it at all costs looking at recent history. She had to work on a team dealing with EU constitution and it was then she realised it would never ever work, same with of course A Leadsome.

But they don't matter right? Emily Thornberry says so

This is one of the big divisive questions of the EU. Its something Frank Field drew attention too with his pre Ref Plea - Vote Leave for the POOR and he meant the poor of the UK, not the poor of the whole EU. He said - we must have compassion but where is it directed too?

I guess EU supporters look at the bigger picture long term, and would say its worth throwing a generation and more under the ideology bus of the EU to help all the poor across the EU ( although we know this has not worked in practice and led to catastrophic unemployment in many countries) as eventually it may all even out.

However Frank said what about the poor in the UK already> How do we benefit them by allowing a vast number of very poor people into the country? Its a pertinent question, which ever way you look at it - it simply does not help a single poor person from the UK to have another hundred shipped in from elsewhere.

I think that saying you voted brexit because you had the poor's best interests at heart is a bit much really.

In the EU section there's a thread where we worked out using BOE data the impact of immigration on wages, it works out at about £11.25 a week lower, but only where 30% of the low paid work force are immigrants.

The advocates of brexit have a good track record of standing up for the poor too don't they, and for workers rights. Don't they?

Yes Darth but you're ignoring the impact of expensive housing. You can whinge on about wages not falling that much, but when housing costs rocket that means fuck all.

And of course, expensive housing (caused by migration) again benefits the rich. Who rent out houses and borrow money against their inflated house prices. But housing is the biggest cost for the poor and is the biggest way money is moving from the poor to the rich. Migration benefits the rich and they're so brainwashed they claim they're being nice while they're claiming to be socialists while ripping off poor people. But as long as you bang on about how anti racist you are who gives a shit about ripping off poor people right? I bet you're a landlord Darth.

Lets be honest though, outside of the South East, where housing has always been expensive, house prices and rents aren't that high and aren't as divorced from wages as they are in the South East and London. For example the average rent for a three bedroom property is £788.

A couple earning minimum wage take home £25, 428. and pay £9456 annual rent, leaving 15,972 or £1,331 for living after rent is paid. Obviously there will be properties available at a lower cost than this too.

Immigration will have less of an impact on rent in many areas because there aren't enough immigrants to effect the market.

Good ad hominem attack on me again there Bill Sykes. The stuff about being brain washed is ridiculous.

Hmmm. If Merkel wanted a bunch of cheap labor, would it not have been simpler to have encouraged migration from countries like Spain and Greece? Plenty of unemployed young people there, and fewer cultural/integration worries.

MaryTheCanary Problem is, young people in those countries are very aware of their employment rights and feel more comfortable insisting that they be applied. Plus they are more geographically mobile, which means that they can drop a poor paid job with limited rights in one country for a poor paid job with health care in another.

Germany has got form for creating client state minorities. It was Turkish migrant workers back in the day, now it's desperate immigrant workers who'll be 'grateful' enough to accept limited employment rights.

I think that painting a humanitarian effort as a way of gaining cheap labour is very poor. Implying that they have done so, so that they can exploit the labour they get is even worse.

I'm sorry you regard it as poor. Perhaps you'd feel better if it was interpreted as importing a grateful voting body for political ends?

Personally I think painting an exploitative human resource acquisition as humanitarian is either naive, disingenuous or just plain mendacious. And that's being nice.

I think the way you are painting it is mendacious, incorrect, over simplistic and driven by prejudice.

"Perhaps you'd feel better if it was interpreted as importing a grateful voting body for political ends?"

Refugees can't vote, it takes a considerable amount of time to get right of residency. See, over simplistic, driven by prejudice and most of all wrong.

Ah, but how many of those refugees will have children while in Germany? How many of them will have voting rights? How many of them will be the second generation immigrants from whom so much violence is originating?

The only prejudice I have is against politicians, for whom humanitarianism is never anything but a smoke screen.

Oh come now, you are showing your prejudices right there and into the matter making enormous assumptions in order to justify them.

Lets see the data on your violence from second generation immigrants ? Cause above I've already dismissed the data on the reported "crime wave" from immigrants, easily.

This was not a cynical way to win votes or get cheap labour.

It's a matter of public record that the majority of terrorist attacks in Europe since the beginning of the War on Terror have been second-generation immigrants. Sort of why the government is putting so much effort into Prevent, and other sorts of community integration programs.

I mean, it's literally in every newspaper article once a terrorist has been identified. And who makes up the remainder? Mostly people who have come to Europe pretending to be refugees. A brief browse of even the most wilfully blind media organs (Guardian, for example) make this a fairly well sourced fact.

Indeed, I challenge you to name one terrorist incident in Europe (apart from Anders Breivik) that has not been committed by a second generation immigrant or a purported refugee. Google away.

Darth, your posts from the last few pages all try to sound fair, but when read together, push a very strong and rather biased opinion.

Jihadi john? The boston bombers? The Iranian guy in Germany? All second generation or moved to Europe as children. There is a problem with INTEGRATION, as explained many pages back. It leads to disconnection and isolation, which causes problems.

There is a problem yes, but it is improving which the report says, but it also says that constantly blaming people for the crimes of terrorists creates more isolation and more problems.

You challenge me ?

Ok all of the Irish and ETA terrorist crimes. Done easy deal.

If you think that it is simply immigration and Islam that are the problem you over simplifying and extremely complex problem and are doing so out of prejudice and an unwillingness to admit that it is many faceted and has many root causes.

The IRA and ETA are vile. But they just aren't out to kill as many civilians as possible in the same way that the fucked up isis and al Qaeda monsters are. Only an ostrich would think that.

But you asked me to name any other terrorists who committed crimes on European soil, I did. And they did aim to kill as many people, the bombs in Birmingham, Guildford etc killed many, there were more than 3,700 people killed by the IRA alone in its campaigns.

Again, simply blaming Islam and a lack of integration is simplistic and ignores the more complex problems.

Can you link to a video by the IRA or ETA that seeks to inspire people to go out and kill as many civilians as possible, please?

I think that saying you voted brexit because you had the poor's best interests at heart is a bit much really

Sorry but Frank Field is a human caring person whose ward is one the most deprived in the whole UK and I think your comment is a bit much having read much of what Frank has written.

There is far more to it than even wages Darth, when your at the bottom, there is very little to go round, so increasing volume of the poor at the bottom doesn't help them, you can see that can't you?
He said its a basic choice between the poor of the eu or the poor of the UK. its that simple. Its a bit much to try and argue otherwise
Its a holistic thing....I will never forget the poster who ran small charity for deprived families she said head just about above water but sadly submerged and sunk. How many more small charities went that way.

Problem is, young people in those countries are very aware of their employment rights and feel more comfortable insisting that they be applied

Absolutely, and I have seen this lack of rights knowledge in action across a number of things. As in knowledge of basic rights in the UK. Very easy to exploit, its been a perfect storm for people wanting to make money out of them. But we know this - the shunting of people across the EU like chattels has been written about many times, for those who are interested.

I've read a lot of what Frank Field has written, but I am allowed to disagree, and can use well researched data to back my point.

The poor in Frank's constituency are not poor or receiving low wages because of the EU, there are many more reasons and I feel that Frank's analysis is not accurate, nor is it based from an impartial source, Frank was always a eurosceptic, he also used Migration Watch to make his predictions of future immigration.

You can use him as an appeal to authority but I don't think he's correct. I think that the inflation coming in the next year, economic uncertainty and austerity now lasting into the next decade will have far more of an impact on the poor than of immigration and I think Frank Field was at best misguided and at worst deluded if he thinks that Brexit will benefit the poor.

He also thought that no government would try and lower working conditions standards, whoops, there is JRM saying that's what the government is looking at.