Breaking : possible terror attack in Berlin

[MagicMary1]

twitter.com/ap/status/810931083944534016

This is so sad.

No one is saying only one type of person commits sexual attacks on women

In the end I think there are a huge range of issues that have led to the situation we find ourselves with terrorism at the minute.

The Western involvement for decades in the ME, from the Balfour proclamation, the division of countries by just drawing lines on a map without considering the ethnic make up,supporting of regimes when it was expedient for us to do so and encouraging up risings when it is also politically convineint for all. All the way up to the war in Iraq and the chaos that has ensued, and our willingness to write of the hundreds of thousands of civilian dead as collateral damage.

Saudi funded Wahabism encourging extremism and being spread over decades, also the West's willingness to use this to their advantage is some situations.

I also think allowing communites to become insular in the UK has been an issue, I don't think it is as common as you are making out, in fact the Casey report backs this, but there are communities where this is an issue ( and no its not just Muslim communities).

To find simple answers, and just blame Islam as being inherently violent are incorrect. I think that it is also strange that we question why some people are prepared to be violent, or see no problem with it, many of whom have seen violent actions purported by Western forces or the allies of the West in their home countries. Violence begats Violence after all.

There are no simple answers, and I think too many here are quick to point the finger.

I think too many here are quick to point the finger

And you seem trigger-happy to defend inculcated bad attitudes to women.

"Yet she was incorrect about the Guardian....."

• And how on earth does this trivia make anything else I said incorrect? The Guardian did not write a piece on Cologne, by that I mean an article by a columnist, for a long time. It's a fact that appears over & over again on the Cologne threads.

Some women even stopped buying that newspaper for that very reason, and to this day still do not buy it (though they may read it online).

You say you are atheist and yet you are rushing to the defence of poor attitudes the source of which is partly religion and partly cultural. I am reminded of Maajid Nawaz's founding of a brilliant description that says it to a T - and that is Regressive Liberal, who are very fond of "whatabouttery". He coined it and it is utterly suitable. Here it is:

The regressive left (also sometimes referred to as regressive liberals) characterises a section of leftists who are accused of holding politically regressive views by tolerating illiberal principles and ideology for the sake of multiculturalism.

"The Guardian did not write a piece on Cologne, by that I mean an article by a columnist, for a long time"

Sigh, reported it on the 5th like everyone ele and then:

Article on the 5th: www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/06/tensions-rise-in-germany-over-handling-of-mass-sexual-assaults-in-cologne

and then:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/08/cologne-attacks-hard-questions-new-years-eve

Column on the 8th and then:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/09/the-left-must-admit-the-truth-about-the-assaults-on-women-in-cologne

Another on the 9th.

And thats just a quick use of google, so its not true is it Southall, they did report it on the same day as everyone else ( which was your initial claim) and then they did have columns about it in the same week it was reported.

I have never defended bad attitudes to women, what I have critiqued you for is your sweeping statement fallacies and then how you have used this to justify and opinion. Your attempt now to accuse me of being "regressive left" is utter rubbish, I do not regressive principals at all which is why I challenge you on yours.

You are attempting to create a straw man out of my argument and doing so poorly.

The first one appeared on the 7th not 5th, a week after the attacks.

Article on the 5th:
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/06/tensions-rise-in-germany-over-handling-of-mass-sexual-assaults-in-cologne

Southall, nobody reported it before the 5th because there was a media black out, in fact that article in your post above is about that:

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/germany-crisis-cologne-new-years-eve-sex-attacks

Article on the 5th. The same day as EVERYONE else.

So the Guardian didn't report it ( first accusation) which they did.

Then they didn't writei columns on it till long after, which they actually did 3 days after the news came out.

Your accusations are completely wrong and attempts to ignore the total media blackout on this till the 5th.

Darth, please don't minimise what happened in Cologne by pointing out that sexual assault is committed by German men too. I lived in Germany, still have friends there and can tell you that one of my friend's daughters endured a terrifying night on NYE when they realised that groups of men were attacking women and the police had completely lost control. This was in Hamburg, where some 400 attacks were reported. Nothing like that had ever happened before, not on that scale and organisation. My friend is Turkish and well aware of the attitudes MENA men have towards women; as she put it "one of the reasons I came here was to get away from that shit". Doesn't matter to those men that her daughters are ethnically Turkish; the fact that they were young independent women dressed up and out clubbing made them fair game -"bad" women. It makes me so angry to think of their freedom being curtailed.

Darth - Southall, nobody reported it before the 5th because there was a media black out, in fact that article in your post above is about that:

Why did there need to be a media blackout?

And I read the German newspapers online - there was uproar in the comments section below the line about the delay in reporting it -the "lying press" was accused of a cover-up to suit their political agenda.

I'm really heartsick about what's happened to purported liberals. My social media timeline this year looks like this : mass rapes in European cities by migrant men: nothing. Huge massacre in Nice:nothing (it's getting a bit embarrassing having to keep changing the flag on your profile pic). Massacre in Brussels airport:tumbleweed. Massacre in Berlin:nothing. Ban/proposed ban of restrictive religious clothing for women in Europe: total uproar and outrage, "clever" memes, feminists asserting the choice of women to cover themselves as though it's just any other fashion choice. I despair, I really do.

(and ftr, I don't support the so called burkini ban)

No one is trying to minimise anything, I agree that the attacks on women were utterly repugnant and that yes it was mainly men from MENA countries that were the perpetrators ( I think 6 were German nationals). The point regarding the other attacks was to highlight that they have also occured in other areas at a lower scale, but were by German nationals.

The reason I made that point is that I feel the over simplistic approach that some posters are making to this highly complex issue needs to be challenged. Southhall has stated that Muslim communities fail to integrate and that the attitude to women is very different to others, where I feel that there is misogyny and opportunistic attacks on woman from people of all colours and creeds. To simply identify it as a fault in Muslims is to negate the fact that there are 2.7 million Muslims in the UK, the vast majority of whom do integrate and do not hold these beliefs, the same will be true in other countries.

To accuse me of minimising is an attempt to create a straw man argument, I didn't and will never do so.

Further to the point about liberals, I see far many more people posting about liberals not complaining about issues, than I see liberals not making statements of sympathy or crticising attacks. The allegation that the Guardian didn't report the Cologne attacks is part of this, its untrue, but its a trope wheeled out in order to attempt to critique those who hold liberal values by the right wing ( in effect another straw man).

What I actually find is that liberals will acknowledge the complexity of the situation and that there is no singular cause to blame, whilst conservatives will over simplify and make statements like Southall's earlier regarding Islam and muslim communities. It is appealing to make simple deductions regarding complex issues, but in this case Okham's Razor is not applicable.

You did minimise it. Why point out that European men and others rape too when we all know that? Cologne was different. I am a liberal, which is why I speak up for freedom of speech (lots of repellent apologia in the left wing media after the Charlie Hebdo murders), equality for women, equal rights for gay people, freedom to practice any religion and none. I read work by Arab feminists, I support charities fighting FGM, I campaign for reproductive rights in my own (formerly religious, conservative) country. I have a good grasp of the history and politics of the Middle East. I'm perfectly able to grasp "complexity" thank you. However, I have little patience for the constant excuse-making and deflection that comes into play when criticism of Islam comes up. I've read the Guardian every day for 25 years and its coverage of this issue has been almost wholly disgraceful, craven, dishonest and cowardly. No straw men at all there.

Well said shins. The whole white men do it too just isn't working anymore, because no, white men on the whole don't go roaming the streets with the sole purpose of separating a woman from her friends in order to gang rape/sexually assault. Until Cologne we had never seen this type of attack in Europe and it was confined to North African countries, probably not so much the ME as the punishment would likely be death whereas there is no punishment in Germany. Nor do the 'quick, look over there' tactics of posters like badkitten work either, her first post on this thread was a classic example, a link to the the stabbing of 3 Muslims, clearing hoping it it was a right wing extremist attack, which it wasn't. Nope sorry it's just all so transparent and quite frankly tiresome.

Any attacks on that day, or indeed any other day by anyone are reprehensible and very sad. I never hope that any particular one group or person will have done any particular act - it is all evil.

Who said anyone hoped? What a weird word. However, some cultures treat women better than others. It's not a surprise when men who've been brought up to see women as possessions to be controlled behave accordingly wherever they are. You aren't going to undo a lifetime's conditioning with a week-long course or those depressing signs in German swimming pools telling migrant men not to molest women.

The reason I made that point is that I feel the over simplistic approach that some posters are making to this highly complex issue needs to be challenged.

I think you are right that these are complex issues and all sources of the violence needed to be challenged. There are no doubt a lot of geo political forces at work. By why discount Islam's role? there are people living in poverty under despots all over the world, but most do not think it's ok to kill innocent people in markets. Islam, or perhaps more accurately a plausible interpretation of it, gives a narrative where that is ok, and unfortunately that narrative is rather widely subscribed to. it too needs to be challenged.

Darth you have argued with everyone on every single aspect of this thread .
What should or should not be done ?

Exactly username. And when Jo Cox's murder happened the same people went into full on hysteria about how it showed the whole of society was becoming incredibly racist and we were back to the 1930s etc, etc. One isolated incident. Yet hundreds of people have died in Europe alone over the last 12 months (and many thousands more worldwide) and apparently this signifies no trend.

I pointed out that European men rape too because Southhall was attempting to use the Cologne attacks as a justification of her point that muslims can't live alongside other communities. To do so is exceptionalism in the extreme. I didn't minimilise anything, but constantly calling out that I did so is your straw man, it allows you to dismiss my point using something I never stated. There are 4.3 million Muslims in Germany, using the Cologne attacks and others which were perpetrated by a few hundred to demonstrate that Islam is some how retrograde in essence is fundamentally flawed, and needs to be pointed out. To do so is not incorrect but shows the prejudice that is being used here.

Who am I Rosa to suggest what should be done? As I said the issues are extremely complex, and yes there are issues within fundamental extremist Islam, but if I knew the answers, I wouldn't be posting on Mumsnet.

Right before I go, and start with the cooking :(.

The point that I minimilised something is like the point that the Guardian didn't report the attacks, nor criticised them

Southall stated this and then when shown that the Guardian did, changed her statement to "columns" which also appeared in the paper. She then tried to say that is was a week when the German police didn't make the attacks public till the 5th. This means that the Guardian reported on the 5th, had further news reports on the 7th, had critical columns on the 8th and 9th but according to many posters it "didn't report it" and this is an example of liberals ignoring the issue.

Like the critique of my argument, its counter factual, I did not minimalise the attacks in Cologne, but demonstrated that they couldn't be viewed in isolation in order to make a point that was inherently prejudiced. Lets not forget that this was all started by Southall's statement that Muslims found it difficult to live alongside Western communities, and no she did not say "some" she made a sweeping and fundamentally flawed statement and tried to back this up.

The attacks on me are to divert from this point and to continue to justify this prejudice, but they are poor, and as I have demonstrated stand little critical analysis.

I do not endorse anything like the things that you have stated, but you seek to create this straw man in order to discredit me. It won't work.

hundreds of people have died in Europe alone over the last 12 months (and many thousands more worldwide) and apparently this signifies no trend

Exactly, Bill. There are some posters who either intentionally or not don't fully acknowledge that there is a “trend”.

Re terror attacks. MN does not accept tabulated columns within posts, so I'm attaching link showing there were 60 ‘Allahu Akbar’ attacks in Europe just in the period 2014 to 2016.

www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/europe-attacks.aspx

No one doesn't acknowledge that there isn't a problem with terrorism. Some of us though aren't going for the simple option and solely blaming Islam and all Muslims for it. Or trying to use it politically expediently to suggest a more authoritarian and less humanitarian set of policies.

Linking to that website is utter dribble in an attempt to justify your point.

It makes the same sweeping generalisations as you do.

But I suppose you would like things to confirm your bias and prejudice.

hundreds of people have died in Europe alone over the last 12 months (and many thousands more worldwide) and apparently this signifies no trend

Very true. As for Cologne and the argument that white men rape too...

Yes, of course. But I can't remember the last time a mob of European men has systematically targeted women this way. Especially not publicly. This shows a certain brazenness and disregard for the rules that govern our society...

I'm not saying European men have never done this... but I highly doubt it has happened recently.

As for the discussions about open borders...

I think the money that would be used to secure the borders of every European country could be invested in things that would increase safety more efficiently. not doing these things and spending the money on border protection would be politicians wasting even more money. And just to bend to the demands of right wing populism.

It seems obvious to me that if any borders should be protected it's the borders to Europe, and not the borders of individual countries. And that cooperation between the different countries, not just European countries, (especially as far as intelligence is concerned) is clearly needed. And not isolationist policies.

And that designing protocols where people like the attacker can finally be sent back efficiently would be a good first step as well.

To which I point you to the Casey report: " vicious circle” in which Muslims felt they were being blamed for terrorism and extremism, leading to suspicion, mistrust and hostility."

But it also says of people who share your views, and the extremists: "T hese groups are ideologically opposed to each other but share the same goal: to show that Islam and modern Britain are somehow incompatible,” she added, “but of course they are wrong.”

So as you see, as I said before Casey does think that there are problems with a failure to integrate, but that we have far higher levels of integration than we did in the past. She also says it as a two way thing, you attempted to use Casey to your advantage but were selective, and failed to quote it or use it properly. Biased, prejudiced and wrong.

As usual.

"I'm attaching link showing there were 60 ‘Allahu Akbar’ attacks in Europe just in the period 2014 to 2016."

The trend actually looks more alarming if you look at the patterns of attempted terrorist attacks. On this page, each paragraph represents all the attempted attacks per year. Notice anything? The paragraphs get longer and longer with each passing year, growing at a very rapid rate since 2011.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thwarted_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

The number of people dying in terror attacks in Europe is actually not (yet) higher than the numbers dying in the last peak, in the 1970s (=Basque separatists, leftists and the IRA, if I remember rightly).

That said, this has to be understood in the context of, we have much much better intelligence than we used to and far more surveillance in every aspect of life.

If we didn't have said surveillance and intelligence, we'd have a much more serious situation.

So far, the situation is not too bad--like I say, we still have somewhat fewer terrorism causalities than we did in the 1970s. The problem is that:

A: As the number of potential terrorists keeps rising, TPTB are having to track more and more people. They've been able to keep a lid on this, mostly, up to now. But if the numbers continue to rise we are going to be faced with a situation where there are simply too many people for the police and intelligence to keep tabs on.

B: As surveillance continues to increase, we are all paying a price in terms of reduced liberty and restrictions on our personal freedoms.