Breaking : possible terror attack in Berlin

[MagicMary1]

twitter.com/ap/status/810931083944534016

This is so sad.

Oh, last comment.

Our neighbors are Muslim.

Their daughters get to enjoy a very good education (better than many British children, I suspect) and as far as I as a foreigner can say are very well integrated.

Generalizations are easy to make and in a time where a certain trend unfortunately clearly does exist can even be justified by some people.
But I highly doubt they would lead to a better society if these generalised prejudices were suddenly seen as an acceptable reason for states to establish a 2 tier society, to give and take rights in the name of security. Which some people seem to want, unfortunately.

The ex-Islamist, Maajid Nawaz, himself says that even third gen muslims in Britain do not venture outside of their tight circle, because everything they require is within the community such as work, worship, food, socialising.

“Many Muslim teenagers are born and raised in this country without a single non-Muslim friend, and not a single friend from the opposite sex. Life revolves around work, family, studies, mosques, weddings, religious and cultural activities, and most importantly food; but only at halal restaurants.

"Isolation can be entrenched further by ‘arranged marriages’ to cousins or family friends from abroad, especially for women.

“Not having been exposed to the complexities of modern life and society, such a teenager is vulnerable to simplistic world views and dogma. One idea that is easy to adopt is the notion of resurrecting a theocratic Caliphate: a single Islamic state or government – and a solution to all ‘Muslim grievances’.

“If mainstream society had woken up to this earlier, much more could have been done. And this is the real issue to discuss. How can communities that live together be so ignorant of the latest political fantasies shared by their neighbours? The answer is that Britain today is living together, apart. I must emphasise it is not only British Muslims who can end up living in such isolation. Also, it is not the isolation alone that causes extremism, and obviously not all British Muslims live like this. But too many do.”

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3133043/We-prise-British-Muslims-digital-ghettos-says-former-extremist-Maajid-Nawaz.html

Oh yes so the Daily Mail is more accurate than the Casey report?

"That while segregation has reduced over the population as a whole, in a number of local areas ethnic or migrant groups have become increasingly divided"

BTW she isn't just talking about segregation in muslim communities but Hindu ones as well: "Muslim and Hindu women were more than twice as likely as Muslim or Hindu men to not speak English at all"

So there are problems regarding isolation and segregation, but they are getting better and it is not a singularly muslim problem.

Bias and prejudice on your behalf again.

Muslim and Hindu women were more than twice as likely as Muslim or Hindu men to not speak English at all

No one is talking about speaking English. I don't know of any Sikhs, Jews, Hindus, Christians who have committed one terrorist outrage in Europe in the name of their faith, or flown planes into tall buildings elsewhere in the name of their faith.

Blind to reality by you again.

the Daily Mail is more accurate than the Casey report?

It is Maajid Nawaz talking - if anyone knows how it feels to be extremist and wanting to kill, then gets a dose of reality and leaves that ideology, it's him.

The whole thing about speaking English goes back to your point saying the muslims fail to integrate, now your conflating that with terrorism, shows your desperation to prove something.

Oh and there are plenty of other terrorists who do things in the name of their faith. Are the Klu Klux Klan not a terrorist group? Or those that bombed Air India flight 182? Or Christian malitias in Lebanon?

Again massive sweeping generalisations and attempts to over simply a situation based on your overt bigotry.. If Islam really was a religion that was about hate and harming others there would be far many more attacks. I repeat an absolutely minute number of muslims could be considered extremist.

"It is Maajid Nawaz talking - if anyone knows how it feels to be extremist and wanting to kill, then gets a dose of reality and leaves that ideology, it's him"

I'll repeat if Islam really was about extremism as you are painting there would be far many more of these attacks, there are around 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, and they live all over the world The make up 4.5% of the British population.

What a truly pathetic attempt to minimise and deflect from the 60 terror attacks in Europe in the last 3 years. KKK are not operating in Europe and hardly at all in USA. The Air India bomb - is that continuing, have we seen further outrages by that individual or group? No. The Lebanese christian militia is a direct result of muslim killings.

Not speaking English does not make you an extremist. There are loads of immigrants living quiet lives with poor English. They do not launch attacks with trucks, or assault & kill people in the street for faith reasons.

Get a grip, girl.

The 1.6 billion muslims around the world are mostly living in muslim countries under pretty despotic rulers. Just as Hussein quashed terrorism (he was actually a killer of terrorists) in Iraq, those other MENA countries will seek you out, execute you and your family if you are found to be even planning something like that. There are many informants, and therefore difficult for any individual or group to be successful.

So, the terrorists come to Europe instead.

"terrorists come to Europe instead."

No doubt some do, but the fact remains that many (most?) perpetrators of major terrorist attacks in Europe were born here, not in the Middle East.

So clearly, stopping all immigration or even kicking out all immigrants from the past 10 years or whatever won't solve the terrorism problem. Which is about the radicalization of youth

I repeat, the not speaking English point was in regard to you singling out Muslims as not integrating, when I repeatedly said that it was not purely a Muslim community issue you told me I was wrong. It appears not.

"The Lebanese christian militia is a direct result of muslim killings."

Are not the Islamic attacks in the West a result of actions against Muslims?

There is no pathetic attempt to do anything, you stated that there were no other religions where people killed in the name of their religion.

You are twisting and turning and changing your points after the fact, you are pathetic, rabid and only ever make arguments for political expediency.

I notice you talk about the way "muslims" treat women, but are an ardent supporter of Trump? Ironic in the maxim I think, and shows your real colours.

... radicalization of youth born and bred within Western countries.

So clearly, stopping all immigration or even kicking out all immigrants from the past 10 years

That's your thought, not mine.

Are not the Islamic attacks in the West a result of actions against Muslims?

We don't know. It's brainwashing, even the target does not remember why though he can puppet any number of phrases he's heard.

My mother knows plenty of muslim ladies of her vintage in her road, and they sometimes meet for tea. A few of their kids have turned to supporting radicals; and two have been arrested for offences under the Terrorism Act.

the not speaking English point was in regard to you singling out Muslims as not integrating

I had a feeling you didnt understand, and the above confirms it. Not being able to speak English does not produce extremists. Not speaking English does not preclude integration albeit in a different way. I know 70 yr immigrants (women mostly) from various countries whose English remains poor. They communicate with smiles and gestures and goodwill. You're never going to have an indepth conversation, but if you say certain keywords (such as nice garden), they understand, will take you into their garden, show you their most recent plants, give you apples from the tree, etc.

Dontcha get it? Still an atheist? ........

Revisionism again Southall, you explicitly stated earlier on that not integrating was purely a muslim problem, I'd say that being unable to speak the language at all ( which is what the report said), not poorly, was a sign that you had not integrated. I said that it went on in the Hindu community too which you denied. It appears you are wrong.

It seems that many of the terrorists, including the Nice attacker, those from 7/7 have intergrated in the Western world and later been radicalised.

I fully understand the point I'm making, but it appears as with a lot of things you are trying to change the goal posts at a later point to give yourself validity.

Still an atheist? Of course? Still a liberal, damm straight, still right? You betcha.

You are political opportunist, you make platitudes regarding subjects because you think it will lead to your own ends, in no way do you actually care about any of the subjects that you preach so vociferously on, you choose to make issues out of them because you think you can use them as a tool to manipulate others.

Merry Christmas everyone, and let's hope 2017 is the greatest.

I have been following this thread for a little while and am disappointed at the lack of communication between two persons especially. terror is indeed nowadays almost entirely Islamic. I do agree that not speaking english does not cause anyone to go to extremism in itself but rather living in ghettoes can do. It is a recent phenomenon in Britain where british born moslem girls have become very traditional and want to cover up, when even their own mothers never did.

This is to convey religiosity and separateness. Integration has not happened in some places because Moslems do not want to integrate ..... this is something that one or two of you are not picking up on. not fault of education or anything, but a desire by Moslem communities to remain apart.

I have been approached by strangers, men in the street, and told that I am not a good Moslem woman because I do not cover my head. This is not an unusual occurrence nowadays and never happened in my mother's day.

But as the Casey report points out, and Southall refuses to acknowledge, the lack of integration is not purely a Muslim problem. Casey also identifies the fact that we are now more integrated then we have been but there are some areas. Nor does it acknowledge the fact that as Casey identifies, isolation of communities is a two way process

I think on Southall's and others part it is an attempt to over simplify, saying terrorism is an Islamic problem that is caused by lack of intergration is to avert your eyes from the massive complexities that exist.

It also seeks to place blame purely at the door of religion, which there is a manipulation of by some clerics, but doesn't acknowledge the fact that many of the attackers are not religious zealots and had not practiced their religion. No consideration is given to the fact that Western foreign policy for decades, which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of muslims might be a factor.

Billsykesdog: And when Jo Cox's murder happened the same people went into full on hysteria about how it showed the whole of society was becoming incredibly racist and we were back to the 1930s etc, etc.

I think you may be on the wrong thread, however...

Jo Cox's murder was not racially motivated and did not provoke the reaction you claim.
The racist attacks of the weekend following the referendum (just a week later) did alarm a lot of people.

Thank you for your lists MaryCanary and Southallgirl - most interesting. I'm afraid that Southall's is unfortunately accurate ,which embarrasses me no end.
Mary - you say that thus far the number of terrorism deaths in Europe is not as high as during the 1970s peak. That may be so, but I think there have been more actual attcks though. What does your source say?

Thank you for your lists MaryCanary and Southallgirl - most interesting. I'm afraid that Southall's is unfortunately accurate My memory is that it's similar to your findings, with IRA, PLO, Bade Meinhhof(Green Party roots); many many 1970s 'terrorist' entities.
But I do know that I am ashamed of how Britain has treated Irish and 'commonwealth' citizens over the last 30 years. Ashamed.
An thanks to you and good wishes for 2017.

There is no doubt that Islam has become more conservative over the last few decades, adversely affecting women.

The minimising of Islamic terrorism on this thread by Darth has been very sobering. This blinkered, politically correct attitude has been very damaging for the UK. Muslims are, increasingly, failing to integrate. To read something else into the Casey report seems like willful misunderstanding.

As for the Guardian reportage of Cologne, to try to defend that is inexcusable. They started off by reporting low figures and saying it was robberies, not assaults. Then after a few days reported that there were 300 cases when the figure was closer to 1,000. The columns were totally biased and were sympathetic to the perpetrators rather than the victims, who were blamed for owning smartphones. They then closed down the comments. Basically the entire coverage was riddled with omissions and inaccuracies.

In no way is my attitude blinkered nor politically correct. It is in fact extremely realist. I have not attempted to "minimise" anything. Yet again this is revisionist of what I have actually said.

I have pointed out that others on this thread have made massive sweeping generalisations regarding muslims and Islam. There have also been attempts to simplify the situation that we are in with terrorism into a singular reason, which is fundamentalist Islam. I believe that the reasons are far more complex, and that simplifying these complex reasons into having a singluar cause is to be disingenuous at best and mendacious at best.

The further constant untruth about the Guardian's reporting is again frutstrating, it started out that it wasn't reported (it was same day as everyone else), then that there were no columns about it condemming ( there were) now that they were sympathetic to perpetrators ( they weren't it was reported straight, or even that they minimised the numbers when the numbers actually grew over time as not all attacks had been reported etc.

On the 5th of Jan the Guardian reported around 60 attacks, on the 6th they then said it was over 100 as the number was growing. They didn't say that they were mugged not sexually assaulted

The BBC article quotes around 80 attacks on the 5th:

"The mayor of Cologne has summoned police for crisis talks after about 80 women reported sexual assaults and muggings by men on New Year's Eve"

The Guardian article on the same says: "German police are investigating reports that scores of women were sexually assaulted and mugged in Cologne city centre during New Year’s Eve celebrations, in what a minister called a “completely new dimension of crime”.

There is little or no difference in the way it was reported.

But this does actually show something that is inherent in the arguments that those who are wishing to simplify this very complex issue so that they can confirm their own prejudices. You are happy to put words in my mouth, and build a straw man argument in order to attempt to dismiss my points, it doesn't wash.

A very good example is the attempt to use the Casey report to justify the suggestion that Muslim's find it difficult to live alongside other mixed populations. Casey did indentify that integration has become an issue in some communities, but that we are more integrated on the whole than ever before. It was also used as a way to identify muslim communities in singularity which the Casey report does not, stating that it goes on in other communites too (although it may be a larger issue in some Muslim communities).

In effect, you are willing to be flexible with the truth in order to attempt to manipulate the argument.

"Muslims are, increasingly, failing to integrate."

But the Casey report says: " That while segregation has reduced over the population as a whole, in a number of local areas ethnic or migrant groups have become increasingly divided."

Which indicates that there has been improvement, but that there are still grave problems.

See this is an example of your attempts to make it all from one side, over simplifying the complexity of this issue.

Casey also is highly critical of the governments over the last decade for failing to do enough.

She also finds that it isn't just in Muslim communities, but Hindu and Roma ones too. As well as there being discrimination against young black men in the criminal justice system.

She also said: " “In some ways we’re pushing some people in the Muslim community away, because they do experience this sense of taking responsibility.”
“Every time there’s a terrorist attack people automatically blame a person that’s called a Muslim. That’s wrong. Muslims are no more responsible for terrorist attacks than I am for the IRA.”

Which supports my theories that this issue is far more complex than simply laying the blame at the feet of Islam.