AIBU.. What exactly is feminism?

[FedUp24]

Hi ladies

What exactly is feminism?

I've always thought it is women fighting for equal rights as men, but there seems to be more to it?

Do feminists believe that all men believe they are superior to women? Are women who choose to not be feminists not really choosing? They only think they are?

I'm just a bit confused!

Because the tone of this thread and every other thread where "wife work" etc is discussed is that it is unfair, discriminatory and imposed on women

Isn't that at the heart of feminism? To challenge assumptions, expectations, cultural expectations, 'gender' expectations, societal expectations, cultural conditioning.

Do you have believe such 'conditioning' is a thing?
Even if you don't believe it's a thing, do you think that those people who think 'it's a thing' should be able to discuss it and its implications for society (for men and women)

Lets say that you were to ask any single mums whether they would prefer instead that the kid lived with the dad FT - what do you imagine they would say to you ?

girl

I'm sure a lot of single parents could discuss their ex's with you, how their ex can't be bothered to do any childcare, how the ex won't do anything when their child is ill and assumes the RP will do it, won't do any school pick ups or drop offs as it affects their career, how they won't be flexible etc.

Lass

I'm glad you have a set up that works so well for you. But I'm finding your incredulity that anyone would consider a less than 50-50 split a little wearing.

Asking why that's not the case is a good question, but as pages of this thread have pointed out the imbalance in domestic duties for most couples, I think it's been answered time and again.

Usually one person has to undertake the bulk of the work at home, and it's generally women.

I'm glad I did most of the child rearing, but, in hindsight, I do think I may have done it slightly differently.

However. many women do want to be the main caregiver. This is part of the reason why I am sometimes on the fence about gender being an entirely social construct. From a biological point of view, if you go back far enough I'm sure children were breastfed for years, rather than months. Which would make child-rearing a female biological imperative.

And although has this has evolved to not be necessary, I wonder if the instinct remains.

If this is the case, I can see why culturally we perhaps lean more towards the domestic duties being undertaken by women.

However, it is now understood that in most families both parents need to earn. Therefore the cultural expectations should begin to accommodate this better.

girl

Do you have an issue with societal expectations of men and women being discussed, challenged and explored?

Or are you happy with the status quo?

Therefore the cultural expectations should begin to accommodate this better

Or at least discussed.

Well, it has to be assumed that there are women out there who do not want to be the primary contact, who would rather it was their husbands and who would rather work FT but can't. I haven't personally met anyone like that and I think lass is right, if that is the setup you want it's a personal decision for two adults to make. I can't believe there are young women today unaware that they could go to work or that their partners should help look after their kid. Challenging social expectations you perceive to exist is one thing, sticking your beak in someone elses business and pontificating about choices and vacuums is quite another.

Challenging social expectations you perceive to exist is one thing, sticking your beak in someone elses business and pontificating about choices and vacuums is quite another

Well, that's feminists told

Do you think that social expectations should be discussed?

If not, why not? What have YOU got to lose by discussing them?

Why don't you address the points in my post instead of askinge more questions ?

I can't believe there are young women today unaware that they could go to work or that their partners should help look after their kid

Do you think that there are many men who
a) Want to work part time / share childcare
b) Have work places that are prepared to be flexible
c) Have an environment that encourages it

Things are changing but it's still overwhelmingly the mum who takes on the childcare, working part time and the career hit

Is that because they want to?
Is it because their partner doesn't want to?
Is it down to the work place?
Is it because they are 'expected to' and their partner sees themselves as the provider?

I think it's ok to discuss those reasons.

You obviously don't think it's ok to discuss them.

Lots

I find that feminism suddenly looks a lot more important after the advent of children. Everything seems to change after that.

Before I had a family, I made all sorts of assumptions about equality, that simply turned out to be incorrect.

Before I had a family, I made all sorts of assumptions about equality, that simply turned out to be incorrect

I find it interesting that there are people who don't seem to think there any issues and expectations and seem reluctant to discuss them. I wonder why they don't even want to discuss them?

I bet most couples where the woman stats home more its because her ability to earn is less. I only know of two couple s where this is not the case.

I realise the thread has moved on a bit, but I just wanted to pick up on a claim from earlier in the thread: I have never witnessed men and women being paid differently for the same job, it's completely illegal for a start

While I have my doubts about this thread (newly joined poster and all, asking question which surely could have been answered by a little bit of old-fashioned research rather than starting a goady thread on an internet forum) I want to address this one.

My employer's own internal audit revealed that we have a pay gap - not just at the "female-dominated roles" coincidentally (sarcasm) happen to be lower-paid than "male-dominated roles" sense (oh, those silly women, choosing to go into the roles that pay less... ), but within individual roles - women seem to be paid anything between about 2 and 10% less, on average, for doing the same job. Our employer claims they haven't got the money to fix it. Our case is going through the courts at the moment - in 2016, 46 years after the equal pay act.

So (going to shout here, because the people suffering from severe confirmation bias on this one appear to find me invisible) IT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT TO CLAIM THERE ARE NO INSTANCES IN THE UK AT PRESENT OF WOMEN BEING PAID LESS THAN MEN FOR DOING THE SAME JOB.

I bet most couples where the woman stats home more its because her ability to earn is less

And that in itself opens up a whole new discussion. It's also self perpetuating.

BertrandRussell

meant to come back to this earlier.

Firstly should anyone be able to say what someone else can (or can't) campaign about and then be derogatory about them when they don't comply?

Secondly it has been argued/discussed on FWR that those campaigning for 50/50, shelters for men etc. are taking away women's rights/choices or funding.

In the case of rights someone will always lose.

In the case of rights someone will always lose

That's a depressing way of looking at things.

Following up from Boney's zero-sum game interpretation, my recollection of those threads was that they were a bit more nuanced. Often, DV charities have been set up by donations, are run on a shoe-string, only get limited public funding (my county council recently took funding away from women's refuges and put it into establishing safe rooms and emergency responses in individual dwellings instead). I think the point being made on those threads is typically that women's refuges and hostels were often grass-roots, women-funded movements. Now of course, men do suffer DV as well (in my own life, I've seen it happen to a relative and to a friend), and we desperately need some sort of response to it. But the question is why many people respond to this by demanding that a system set up by women for women which is already stretched to financial breaking point accommodate men as well. Why not ask why the MRA making a lot of noise online don't put all that time and energy into fund-raising for DV shelters for men. Then it wouldn't be a zero-sum game, with stretched resources being taken from women in desperate straits to give to men (also in desperate straits). We'd have more resources all round if everyone pitched in. It shouldn't be a zero sum game.

Boney "someone will lose" how about more pla 're on shelters for the people more likely to be finscially dependant I. A violent, potentially murderous, partner?

I don't think that is a win lose situation, I think it is logical.

Italiangreyhound

How about more funding for shelters etc.?

That way the money taken wouldn't come from the small amount already given.

I have (and am) campaigning for money for male shelters, what I don't want to see is a reduction in the amount of money for women's shelters.

M0stlyHet

Why not ask why the MRA making a lot of noise online don't put all that time and energy into fund-raising for DV shelters for men

So someone making "noise" about this is an MRA, that is the opposite of what Bertrand posted earlier.

"Firstly should anyone be able to say what someone else can (or can't) campaign about and then be derogatory about them when they don't comply?"

campaign for anything you like so long as you aren't campaigning to take someone else's rights away. I only suggested the ones I did because they are the ones a lot of MRA seem to think women should be campaigning for on their behalf.

"econdly it has been argued/discussed on FWR that those campaigning for 50/50, shelters for men etc. are taking away women's rights/choices or funding"

I don't think it has. What has been made very clear is that women have fought long and hard for provision for women victims of domestic violence, and if men want similar provision it's up to them to think of ways to provide it without muscling on on what's available for women.

Boney "I have (and am) campaigning for money for male shelters, what I don't want to see is a reduction in the amount of money for women's shelters"

That is good.

boney I've been on lots of threads with you about DV on males and never seen a suggestion that men shouldn't have shelters. But 1) equality doesn't men 50/50 funding split, it means both sexes getting their needs met equally and fairly. There are far fewer male victims of domestic violence thand female so providing equal number of shelter spaces for each would be a waste of money as the men's would stand empty. 2) what bert said - why is it up to charities like women's aid, set up for women by women, to also look after men?
Good for you for fundraising, amazing you are doing more than mouthing off about how unfair feminists are.

^I think it's ok to discuss those reasons.

You obviously don't think it's ok to discuss them.

Lots^

I think there is nothing wrong with discussing them, but that is not what you are doing. You already decided it's a) a massive problem and b) the reason it exists. You're not really interested in a discussion, when someone comes on and says that they felt pressurised into taking on duties around the house they didn't want to - you take it as gospel. IME I have not met any women who would rather have gone out to work than raised their young children. A decision they most definitely took.

What do you want me to say ? Some people do certain things out of a feeling of societal obligation - how many ? I have no idea these days - do you ? It seems to me that a great many young couples both work full time, I don't ask them who does the most house work, nor do i know whether the women in these couples feel obligated to do more and resent it. The point is - neither do you, you have a handful of FWR regulars who maintain that women feel social pressure to be the primary carer for their child and not their husband.