AIBU.. What exactly is feminism?

[FedUp24]

Hi ladies

What exactly is feminism?

I've always thought it is women fighting for equal rights as men, but there seems to be more to it?

Do feminists believe that all men believe they are superior to women? Are women who choose to not be feminists not really choosing? They only think they are?

I'm just a bit confused!

A decision they most definitely took

Why do you think they took that decision?
What implications does that decision have?

I don't ask them who does the most house work, nor do i know whether the women in these couples feel obligated to do more and resent it

Maybe if you read many of the threads on MN, on Chat, on AIBU and relationships, you might find out how some women in couples feel?

Antispartcus

Er Girl pointed out it should not be assumed women are unhappy / did not choose to be default parent etc, etc. You immediately jumped on her stating that no such assumption had been made.

You then jumped on me as per below. Not sure what point you are making below.

Isn't that at the heart of feminism? To challenge assumptions, expectations, cultural expectations, 'gender' expectations, societal expectations, cultural conditioning etc, etc.

I'm not saying that those things should be the preserve of the woman, but judging by my experience and observations in RL and on MN they are things that frequently as assumed to be for women to pick up. Even if they are not done by the "wife", they are still "wife work" in my book

No they are not "wife work ". They are domestic duties. Insisting they are "wife work" when they could be done by either partner seems to be perpetuating martyrdom.

How can you expect society to challenge these assumptions when you perpetuate them by using such language?

girl do you think most men would prefer to go back to work rather than stay at home and raise their children?

IMO there is a very negative social reaction to women who openly state that they would rather be at work than at home with their baby. It's the idea that they are somehow unnatural for having that preference.

You then jumped on me as per below. Not sure what point you are making below

You said:

Because the tone of this thread and every other thread where "wife work" etc is discussed is that it is unfair, discriminatory and imposed on women

Isn't it reasonable to discuss those issues? Being unfair, discriminatory and imposed?

Girl pointed out it should not be assumed women are unhappy / did not choose to be default parent etc, etc

Actually, girl said:

I wouldn't assume that all mothers are unhappy about this, they aren't

I don't think anyone assumes all mothers are unhappy. I haven't said that

DeviTheGaelet

I stated that money shouldn't be taken away from women's shelters

why is it up to charities like women's aid, set up for women by women, to also look after men?

I don't think that it is, but as a society shouldn't we be supporting all those in need?

Good for you for fundraising, amazing you are doing more than mouthing off about how unfair feminists are.

Is this supposed to be a snide comment?

Girlwiththe I am one of these nonexistent women who worked full-time and whose DH was the primary care giver, doing the bulk of the wife work. He was a feminist and thought I was a genius. I would never have started my own business without his endless encouragement. When I started earning enough to support us he ditched his boring job and took over the DC full-time. I'm sure I chose a lovely, feminist man because my DF is one too.

We still live under patriarchy, though the condition of women in the UK is far better than women in, say, Pakistan. The pay gap is real, and women's rational wariness of men is the fruit of rape culture and social norms. Feminist men make themselves aware of this and actively combat misogynistic attitudes when they encounter them as well as making sure that nothing they do unintentionally causes women to fear them. Simple things like swapping pavements so a woman walking ahead will know she's not being followed

Men are responsible for 90% of serious and violent crime. Men are responsible for 98% of sex crime. This, of itself, has a huge impact on women's lives. I've been raped twice, and I know my experience is not remotely uncommon. Things like travelling alone, even walking in the countryside alone present anxieties for women that are not a concern for men.

If women's movements and behaviour in the public sphere are constrained, who benefits? The answer is the patriarchy, all those men who feel women have a place they should be kept in.

As the saying goes "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."

How we raise our DC can affect crime figures. Choosing feminist men to father our children will make a massive difference. Analysis of the many small and large systemic inequalities will help. It's being achieved bit by bit.

Why do you think they took that decision?

Because they always wanted to be a mother. The desire to be a mother is IMO a far stronger factor in women's lives that the desire of men to be a father. I don't believe that is due to social condition.

What implications does that decision have?

It means that they will possibly have to take a reduction in wages, take up a different kind of work to fit in around their child etc.

Is it your opinion that the majority of women are unaware of this ? That they think they have no choice ?

Girl pointed out it should not be assumed women are unhappy / did not choose to be default parent etc, etc

I am sure many women did choose to be at home. I don't have any problem with that choice.

I do think it's reasonable to ask why women are more likely to make that decision, to examine any societal costs there might be to them and the implications.

boney no it was genuine. I know it looks sarky but it isn't

DeviTheGaelet

apologies. :)

The point is - neither do you, you have a handful of FWR regulars who maintain that women feel social pressure to be the primary carer for their child and not their husband

And who seem happy to perpetuate that by insisting on the term "wife-work "or suggesting that any departure from this required " engineering and foresight".

Seriously do fathers and husbands have to be "engineered" or manipulated to do their fair share?

It means that they will possibly have to take a reduction in wages, take up a different kind of work to fit in around their child etc.
God this is infuriating! Why should women entirely shoulder the impact of reproduction on their career? Men are fathers too, they can do this stuff and many many do.
lass is a good example of what happens if you don't have a perception of "wifework" in your relationship.
But too many men think it's acceptable to insinuate women bring it all on themselves by being mothers.
Without women being mothers, there would be no option for men to be father's.
Without women being mothers there would be no humanity full stop.
I wish we would stop pretending childbirth is a choice for women. For an individual woman, yeah sure. But for women as a class, no its not unless you want to see the extinction of humans.
This makes me so angry. Your poor wife girl. I hope you aren't spouting this bollocks at home. Talk about devaluing a partnership.

Devi

Please enlighten me how it is "bollocks" to say that a woman who wants to stay at home with their young child should shoulder the impact of reproduction on their career when the CHOSE IT !? jesus wept.

IMO there is a very negative social reaction to women who openly state that they would rather be at work than at home with their baby. It's the idea that they are somehow unnatural for having that preference

Well indeed as Datun put it less invested in their children (I don't think she has answered if it was just me who was less invested or if the fact my husband worked meant he was less invested)

What I'm taking from this, is that it's all inevitable women will fare worse ; there will be lots of complaining and analysis of this but nothing can or will be changed because it's "wife-work" set in stone.

'What I'm taking from this, is that it's all inevitable women will fare worse ; there will be lots of complaining and analysis of this but nothing can or will be changed because it's "wife-work" set in stone.'

You are totally and utterly right Lass. So why don't you go and expend your energy elsewhere?

Women being victims of rape has nothing to do with equality. In this country (at least), men are not encouraged to abuse and rape women!

Until 1991 not only could a man legally rape his wife (even if they were 24 hours from the decree absolute) but he could also sodomize her knowing his assault would be a 2 year maximum sentence, but if he did the same to a man he could face 10 years in prison.

And men are encouraged to abuse and rape, where do you think the phrase 'asking for it' comes from?

I have (and am) campaigning for money for male shelters, what I don't want to see is a reduction in the amount of money for women's shelters.

Are you ignoring all the evidence that men need support in other areas and that shelters are often not suitable?

That abused men are often working but abused women are often prevented from working by their abuser so more able to leave an area?

Well feminism seems to be failing utterly if feminists think a fair share of domestic duties and childcare can only be achieved by engineering and manipulation.

'Well feminism seems to be failing utterly if feminists think a fair share of domestic duties and childcare can only be achieved by engineering and manipulation.'

I don't really understand this, could you explain?

Because childcare isn't an optional extra. If your wife had said "let's have a baby, but I'm going back to work FT after 6 weeks because my career is really important. Oh and by the way I need to work away and my employer can't be flexible because of how important my job is, so you need to sort childcare" what would you say? Can you really not see that with a male partner in those circumstances, the most pragmatic choice for a woman might be to give up work, so as not to be running around like a blue arsed fly and paying through the nose for the privilege?
I have literally lost count of the number of men who tell me they can't work flexibly, can't take SPL etc because of their job is too important. But strangely it'seems ok for women to do it "because they want to"
No they don't, not always. But you can't lock the baby in a cupboard for 12 hours so someone has to do it. It isn't a free choice UNLESS the father is prepared to make equal sacrifice to his own career and most don't appear to be.

I don't know why you've taken that black and white negative stance Lass. Discussing this in detail doesn't mean it can't be addressed. I'd like to think I'm addressing it as best I can in my own relationship, and that I'm bring up my two sons to "be the change".

Then there are wider societal changes I will support and argue for. Reading and discussing these sorts of topics on threads here has helped me understand what I'd like to see change.

Sparrowhawk

Datun commented that she "assumed I had engineered from the very beginning, with commendable foresight" that the wife work and childcare would be shared.

I didn't. It never occurred to me they would not.

Are you suggesting that my wife and I did not discuss this or that when we did she was not honest about her wishes ? That's a new one.

most don't appear to be.

Says who ? Have you any idea how many times the conversation even took place ? Again your assumption is that most women who want to stay at home and look after their children did not have a choice. Many people don't give a shit about their careers.

sashh

Are you ignoring all the evidence that men need support in other areas and that shelters are often not suitable?

Some people are never happy, I am also working with providing support groups, MH professionals and schools to change attitudes from a young age. So yes I am also doing other things.

That abused men are often working but abused women are often prevented from working by their abuser so more able to leave an area?

Yes, I am also aware of this, but are you also aware that many male victims do not leave because they fear for the safety of the children if they go? Are you also aware that many of difficulties that happen when men remove their children from the homes with an abusive partner are the same as when women remove the children?

DV and DA doesn't have a simple solution.

If you take some women's shelters as an example, some refuse male children over 13.

Then there are wider societal changes I will support and argue for. Reading and discussing these sorts of topics on threads here has helped me understand what I'd like to see change

My husband and I were born in the 50s , brought up by parents born in the 20s and 30s and in my case by a grandfather born in the first decade of the 1900s. Neither he nor I came to our relationship or parenthood with the expectation domestic duties would fall unfairly on me and that my career would have to take a hit.