AIBU.. What exactly is feminism?

[FedUp24]

Hi ladies

What exactly is feminism?

I've always thought it is women fighting for equal rights as men, but there seems to be more to it?

Do feminists believe that all men believe they are superior to women? Are women who choose to not be feminists not really choosing? They only think they are?

I'm just a bit confused!

You can get a fairer split if your partner is also a feminist, lass.

However one of the things, in fact _the main thing-, that makes feminism different from other political movements is that members of the group we're struggling against, men as a class rather than as individuals, are typically part of our family, whether as parents, partners, dc or siblings. If civil rights campaigners at the time of Martin Luther King had mostly been married to white people the movement would have been very different. That's where all the sensitivity comes in. For example, happily married women hear feminists talk about rape culture and assume that feminists are saying all men are rapists.

It's one of the reasons feminist gains tend to be slow. I think the increase of women who have lifelong careers has changed the views of their DC generation after generation. My own DM was the only one of her female friends who worked at all. I carried on working until 4 days before the birth of my DS2. My DSs grew up knowing I was successful in my work, and that menstruation was not something any man should find embarrassing. As feminists and with our DPs we can try to be role models for our DC and their friends.

Things like travelling alone, even walking in the countryside alone present anxieties for women that are not a concern for men.

You can never make it the case that women will never fear men IMO. How would you change society so that men are not capable of harming women ? Because without that I fail to see how you could ever make someone not frightened of men if that is how they see them. Walking home alone i might also be frightened a large man might assault me. Should he just walk by himself so I don't have the fear ? I've been assaulted a few times.

IMO there is a very negative social reaction to women who openly state that they would rather be at work than at home with their baby

I'll admit to being old fashioned on this front, but I do have a problem with out sourcing child care so that both parents can pursue a career, I feel one of you owes it your child to be there for them when they are little. Doesn't have to be the women. If child care is to be affordable it has to be cheap and that doesn't seem right to me.

Can I just remind people that women didnt start by 'campaigning for money' for shelters and Rape Crisis. Women put their hands in their pockets and paid for them, no matter how small the donation it was welcome.
Taxpayer support didn't happen until a couple of decades ago.

That's great for you Lass. Really, I'm glad you had such a great upbringing, and have been able to be immune to any influence from wider society.

I think you're saying to me that I too should have been immune from any influence from my parents and society, or that no such pressure exists. Therefore any failings in the equality of my relationship is self inflicted as an active choice to be a victim, and not related to anything else at all. Is that right?

Therefore any failings in the equality of my relationship is self inflicted

Can't speak for lass, but if you think your relationship is unfair, it's a bit daft to try and change the whole of society when all you need to say to your partner is "I'm not prepared to do that" ?

Sorry, missed a bit out. Just that I notice a marked decrease in sexism among my DS's group of friends compared to young men of my own generation. There are quite a lot of them and they come round all the time, always chatting. The idea that girls are equal and that their education is just as important is a no brainer for them. We talk about all sorts and their attitude is refreshing. I find myself reassured that the rising generation have absorbed many of the messages women have been trying to convey.

Come on, it's much more complex than that. And

...sorry, the baby pressed Post before I'd finished my thought...

Prawnofthepatriarchy
when all you need to say to your partner is "I'm not prepared to do that" ?

Its great that you are surrounded by such reasonable men.
Would that work for domestic violence?

Dammit, that comment was for girlwiththeflaxenhair

I have no beef with the way decisions about who does what around children/childcare were made in my relationship. There are things that made making certain decisions less likely, these are the areas where I would like to see wider change. Not for my benefit, but for other women who have yet to make their decisions.

when all you need to say to your partner is "I'm not prepared to do that

And your partner says "No, you do it. It's woman's work"

Then what happens?

Would that work for domestic violence?

Ah - the goalposts shift again.

And your partner says "No, you do it. It's woman's work"

You, I assume, express great shock that he would say such a thing, perhaps you feel a bit daft that you have had a child with someone who you know so little about and didn't discuss this with ? You tell me. Join a feminist group and try and change the whole of society because you had a child with a prick?

Again your assumption is that most women who want to stay at home and look after their children did not have a choice. Many people don't give a shit about their careers
My assertion is that many women stay at home and look after children as a pragmatic choice in lieu of other options.

When you say people don't give a shit about their careers, do you actually mean women? Or do you include men too, in which case why don't we see more PT/SAHD?
I actually know very few people who don't give a shit. Most people take a huge sense of pride in doing their job well, whether that's a traditional career or stay at home parenting.

You can get a fairer split if your partner is also a feminist, lass.

He is a man. There are a fair number of FWR posters who think a man can never be a feminist. Or did you mean I'm the feminist partner?

but if you think your relationship is unfair, it's a bit daft to try and change the whole of society when all you need to say to your partner is "I'm not prepared to do that" ?

Well yes, there is more to it than that but on an individual level you have to start somewhere.

Devi

But you are probably a typical middle class MN feminist ? I know loads of people that don't particularly like their jobs and only do it because they have to.

do you actually mean women?

No a great many men as well as women. I am amazed that this even surprises you.

It surprises me that if so many men don't give a shit about their career, more aren't being SAHDs or working flexibly

DeviTheGaelet

It surprises me that if so many men don't give a shit about their career, more aren't being SAHDs or working flexibly

But then you are back to how society perceives the men that do this.
We have had many 'strange man in playground' threads on here, backed up by 'I'm tired of my "D"H being a SAHP' or 'supporting my "D"H being at home' and linking it to the misused word 'cocklodger'.

There has to be a shift, not only in the male mind but the female mind as well (stick as a class in there if you like).

Interestingly, the most equal family set ups I have come across are here in the US, where the standard is 6 weeks maternity leave. I assume - though have not cross-examined my friends in any detail on this! - that this forces men to up their game, because they have a partner who is pretty fragile having just given birth and then when the mother goes back to work they both have to adapt equally to the changes being a working parent brings.

Compare and contrast to the 6+ months maternity leave many women in the UK take, where it's very easy to fall into a pattern where the father goes back to work after an initial stint of paternity leave and the mother is a SAHM. It can be really difficult to shift from the routines established during that time.

Obviously shared parental leave should go a long way to rectify this, and I personally can't get my head around going back to work 6 weeks after giving birth (my baby was nearly 6 weeks premature, for one thing). It is a debatable point, however, whether short maternity leave can actually lead to a better, more equal set up for women in the long run (and conversely whether long maternity leave is overall detrimental)

lass I didn't mean to offend you. When I said engineered, perhaps a better word would've been arranged. I didn't and wouldn't say manipulated because there is nothing in your posts to suggest anyone was.

And of course, having children and maintaining a career does require foresight. Unfortunately, for a lot of women, that only becomes clear in hindsight.

A choice you make when pregnant, doesn't always seem quite as sensible 15 years later.

boney Totally agree. When feminists say "patriarchy" that includes all the behaviours supporting the current system, like women excluding men from toddler groups etc etc
TBF cocklodger is usually about men who aren't working or pulling their weight at home. Threads about similar women are equally scathing.

olenna I think there should be specific parental leave allocated to men instead of "shared leave". It is too easy to default to the status quo at the moment ie woman has 1 year, man has 2 weeks. To make a proper change there must be a real incentive to both partners for men to be off. Dedicated use it or lose it additional paternity leave would do that.
Maybe 6 months each and then free childcare from age 1 would encourage more dad's to take 6 months pat leave as it would change the financial implications.
Shame I am not running the country

girlwiththeflaxenhair
OK, sure. Just be assertive and it all falls into place. Thanks for the lesson.

Interestingly, the most equal family set ups I have come across are here in the US, where the standard is 6 weeks maternity leave. I assume - though have not cross-examined my friends in any detail on this! - that this forces men to up their game, because they have a partner who is pretty fragile having just given birth and then when the mother goes back to work they both have to adapt equally to the changes being a working parent brings

That rings a lo of bells. I 4 weeks off before the birth and went back full time at 2 months. We both had to adapt pretty quickly and if the housework was going to be done or food on the table it either had to be shared or pay someone else or a mixture of both.

I think it is Iceland that gave men six months paternity leave as a measure to prevent employment discrimination against women. It had the spin-off effect of men becoming much more attached to their children and becoming better fathers.