AIBU.. What exactly is feminism?

[FedUp24]

Hi ladies

What exactly is feminism?

I've always thought it is women fighting for equal rights as men, but there seems to be more to it?

Do feminists believe that all men believe they are superior to women? Are women who choose to not be feminists not really choosing? They only think they are?

I'm just a bit confused!

there are definitely some elements of wife work one can opt out of (Christmas cards seems to be the seasonal example), but there are still more than enough other jobs that are technically optional but not really (costume for World Book Day) or not at all optional (laundry, cooking, cleaning, shopping...). Even getting someone to assist with these jobs (dry cleaner, house keeper, cleaner, online ordering...) requires effort and management, they don't just disappear

And the more children you have the harder it becomes. Yes, you can not go to sports days, recitals, or the numerous Christmas events. It's a choice but it's not without consequences. Long summer holidays, sick children, etc. It's a minefield of organisation and never-ending guilt.

Your scepticism about wife work expanding to fill the time available, Lass, is either personal experience which included a lot of luck, or a strange opinion

My husband and I both work full time. I went back to work full time when my son was 2 months old. We had a nanny and a cleaner. The cleaner did 6 hours per week. I don't recall "wife work" being an undue burden on either my husband or me.

I am puzzled at how women with children at school who don't work , assuming there are no special needs , can fill a whole day 5 days a week with wife-work.

But Oleanna why are any of those things the preserve of a woman if both partners work full time?

I can see why those tasks would be taken on by a partner who doesn't work outside the home - that's surely the stay at home partner's job.

Do you split those sorts of things 50/50 then Lass? Neither of you is the default parent?

Lass - I'm not saying that those things should be the preserve of the woman, but judging by my experience and observations in RL and on MN they are things that frequently as assumed to be for women to pick up. Even if they are not done by the "wife", they are still "wife work" in my book

Lass

There are many permutations to a family set up. Both people working full time and employing staff at home, is obviously one of them. Lots of people simply don't earn enough.

And yes with all the children at school, obviously you have much more free time. Which is why a lot of women then work part time. You still have to take the children to school, pick them up and have them in holidays or when they're sick.

There are also many jobs which have long and unpredictable hours and require business trips. Both parents working in those jobs would have to have full-time live-in staff or a very accommodating family member.

I think the reality is that with the advent of children, the wife either becomes a SAHM or uses some form of childcare to work around a part time job. Unless they pay someone else to child care.

So you either pay someone else to do it, or one of the parents take the hit. In reality this is generally women. And even now, when more and more mothers are working full time, there is still little expectation that child care/domestic work will be equally shared.

I do believe there is a slight cultural shift (or that might just be mumsnet), but I would like to see a general expectation that these duties are the responsibility of both parents, as a matter of course.

Unless you have a family member who is willing to do the childcare it will be either a nanny or a nursery. By strangers I mean people whose investment in your child will never be as great as yours, or a that of a family member

Right so basically it comes to generalised whinging about career prospects being ruined by career breaks with no clear idea of how those of us, whether men, women, parents or otherwise who have not taken career breaks are supposed (if at all ) to deal with this problem whilst at the same time congratulating oneself that one is a more invested parent.

Tell me , is it just working mothers who have this lack of investment or does it apply to working fathers?

Do you split those sorts of things 50/50 then Lass? Neither of you is the default parent?

Why on earth would we not split them? What is a "default parent"?

You still have to take the children to school, pick them up and have them in holidays or when they're sick

Why would that fall only on me ? My son has 2 parents. Dropping off we took week about unless one of us had a morning meeting; collection was done by the nanny and sick days by whichever of us could more easily work from home.

Yes, why on earth wouldn't you split them 50/50! Of course you should, great that you do. But that isn't the case for lots of people. Why is that?

Default parent is the idea that one parent is actually in charge and the other is not. So they get phoned first by school, or the doctors etc.

I love that there are more and more men who are the ones who are turning up at the school gate having made the cakes for the bake sale, or getting their daughters' hair up into RAD perfect buns for their ballet exam, or remembering that it's time to see the dentist again. Unfortunately there aren't enough of these men yet, and so failure to do these tasks is predominantly seen as a failure on the part of the "wife", regardless of the family set up.

We still have a long way to go until a 50:50 arrangement is the norm.

POsted too soon...

Obviously the fact that feminists have pushed to ensure that these tasks are not just for women to do is beneficial for the many men that want to be more involved in their kids' lives, but are held back from doing so by the traditional set up of breadwinner and SAHM.

Lass

You have an admirably equal set up. Which I assume you engineered from the very beginning, with commendable foresight. That sounds sarcastic, but it's not meant to be. I mean it.

For lots of mothers, a career break followed by part time work can effectively push them massively down the earning scale. Yes, it's a choice of course. But flexible hours and job sharing is a massive benefit when they return to work.

As I said, there is no easy solution. There really is no such thing as 'having it all'. Something has to give.

I have asked lots of people whether they can think of a creative solution to this, but have concluded that there isn't a one size fits all answer.

Encouraging girls to higher education would help. Jobs like teacher/doctor can take a career break. Encouraging young women (and young men) to think ahead 10-15 years and make provision would also be a good idea.

SpeakNoWords "Yes, why on earth wouldn't you split them 50/50! Of course you should, great that you do. But that isn't the case for lots of people. Why is that?"

I know one family where the dad is the stay at home parent and one family where the parents split their time equally between paid work and child care.

I think the reason it does not happen more often (50/50 split, or man staying home) is because work women do is generally paid a lot less. It's simple financial needs. And increasingly both parents need to work so one might be part time and the other full time. Who is likely to be full time, the one who earns most, which is likely to be the man.

I think feminism is a response to patriarchy. When you see how incredibly shit some women and girls are treated in this world. And how all women and girls are viewed by some men, then the response is to want to challenge this appalling reality.

FedUp24 are you still reading. Is any of this helping? Can I ask why you asked?

Really, for me, there is no other option than to be a feminist.

cathf Sorry, I've had to jump a bit, but part of my feminism is the rights of children. You gave the example of changing the working hours of a mother to times that do not fit in with childcare needs. And who suffers from this, the children. The mother loses her job, there is no food on the table, the mother finds a way around this and the children don't get to see their mother in the morning.

Everytime a mother is discriminated against, it is the children that suffer.

I have seen plenty of posts complaining about how women's careers have suffered because they have taken career breaks. I'm sure they have but what exactly do they think those people , men and women, who haven't taken career breaks or employers are supposed to do about it?
I work in an industry where people taking sabbatical of up to a year is common and also has no discernible impact on their career. It's interesting that a maternity leave break is seen as a thing that people should expect to impact their career.

My sons have two parents and we share pretty much everything equally between us (in terms of 'wife work') when he's here because he simply isn't a prehistoric bellend. However, he has his own business and works away often; a phone call from school to say "you need to collect DS2 as he's unwell" isn't great when you're sat in a conference in Dubai or NZ. As a teacher my hours are constant, regular and in one location so most of the parenting duties fall to me because he isn't there to do them. It's ok to say "why on earth wouldn't you split everything 50/50" but for most couples we know it's not feasible to do that. Including us. I don't assume that because our situation is successful that it would necessarily be successful for every other working family.

However, he's completely aware that having a DW who works full-time, juggles two DCs, and picks up his absent-parent-slack means he's able to have his high-flying career. Without that backup he'd have to rethink his business. We're a team and so long as both members of the team appreciate and value one another's input the team works successfully. For me that's feminism; he values my role as much as I value his. It's not about equal or 50/50 for me. It's about ensuring that everyone in a relationship knows their value and worth.

You have an admirably equal set up. Which I assume you engineered from the very beginning, with commendable foresight

I didn't engineer anything. I never considered I would not return to work and everything else just followed naturally, why would it not? Our son had 2 parents and there were 2 adults in the house.

Why would that fall only on me ? My son has 2 parents. Dropping off we took week about unless one of us had a morning meeting; collection was done by the nanny and sick days by whichever of us could more easily work from home

For many families, the 'default' assumption is that it falls to the mum. Whether it's down to expectations, conditioning, a lack of flexible jobs for the Dad who wants to to do this but has a reluctant employer, a cultural expectation on the Dad not to do this etc - it's normally the mum who does this.

Saying 'but this is what happens in our house' ignores the reality for many people.

I think feminism is about challenging these assumptions, encouraging people to think about these assumptions, to discuss how work can be more flexible in such thinking and to discuss how society can change.

You have a good set up. Many families don't have such a set up.

Society is changing slowly but a lot of child care responsibilities and ALL the implications of that (time off sick, unable to work late, having to leave early) are more likely to fall to mums.

everything else just followed naturally, why would it not

Why would it not?

That's a massive question - and one that has a lot of answers. It's at the heart of society, expectations of parents. attitudes of work places to jobs, flexibility of employers, how each parent considers their role, the attitude of EACH parent and your relationship with your partner

Society is changing slowly but a lot of child care responsibilities and ALL the implications of that (time off sick, unable to work late, having to leave early) are more likely to fall to mums.

I wouldn't assume that all mothers are unhappy about this, they aren't.

I wouldn't assume that all mothers are unhappy about this, they aren't

No assumption made here.

Why would you say that?

Why would you say that?

Because the tone of this thread and every other thread where "wife work" etc is discussed is that it is unfair, discriminatory and imposed on women?