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AIBU?

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Original poster

AIBU.. What exactly is feminism?

277 replies

FedUp24 · 19/12/2016 09:53

Hi ladies

What exactly is feminism?

I've always thought it is women fighting for equal rights as men, but there seems to be more to it?

Do feminists believe that all men believe they are superior to women? Are women who choose to not be feminists not really choosing? They only think they are?

I'm just a bit confused!

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 19/12/2016 22:09

Stats on the gender pay gap in the UK civil service by grade (overall, it's getting worse BTW)

Even if some of this is due to the generous maternity benefits offered by the civil service, it doesn't explain similar findings in the California state government, which doesn't offer similar benefits

DJBaggySmalls · 19/12/2016 22:09

SnatchedPencil
Feminism is the belief that women should have rights that are equal to or greater than the rights than men have.

No it isnt.

amispartacus · 19/12/2016 22:11

Why women (in general) don't negotiate their job offers.

hbr.org/2014/06/why-women-dont-negotiate-their-job-offers

amispartacus · 19/12/2016 22:16

And

www.hrmagazine.co.uk/article-details/pay-rises-should-womens-ability-to-negotiate-matter

A joint study from Cass Business School, the University of Warwick and the University of Wisconsin has suggested that women ask for wage rises as often as men, but men are 25% more likely to get them. My organisation AAT recently carried out similar research into the UK finance sector, which showed that men are more likely to receive pay rises than women. Our study differed from the Cass Business School study as our results suggested that men in finance are more bullish and more likely to ask for a pay rise.

In the wake of these pieces of research, a question might be asked: should it matter whether women are as likely to ask for a pay rise as men? Should employers instead move away from reward systems where those who speak loudest are more likely to get a raise?

cathf · 19/12/2016 22:17

Where is the evidence AmISparticus?
The evidence being all things being equal that women are consistently paid less for doing the same job. I don't think there is any evidence of this. Plenty of evidence that women are paid less than men by the end of their working life, but that would most likely include at least one maternity leave and/or a period of part time-working to be factored in, so not all things equal.
Plenty of evidence that women are paid less for doing an arguably equal (but not the same) job.
But no evidence that a woman who has worked the same length of time at the same job is paid less than a man. That's illegal.
Bert, several posters have already cast doubt on the validity of any potential claim, so I think the reference was that the fight would not be an easy one, so the woman would have to be very invested to take it on.

amispartacus · 19/12/2016 22:19

cathf

Links above

But no evidence that a woman who has worked the same length of time at the same job is paid less than a man. That's illegal

Pay is not published. In many jobs, people have no idea what people get paid. If you can negotiate your salary, then you can earn more than someone else.

SpeakNoWords · 19/12/2016 22:20

So what happens if women simply stop having children and therefore time off? Is that what you'd suggest women do? Or only have children with a partner who will take parental leave, and return to work after the mandatory 2 weeks?

amispartacus · 19/12/2016 22:21

cathf

And again, just why are you so keen to dismiss this idea?

cathf · 19/12/2016 22:25

AmISparticus, for the same reason that you are so keen to promote it - because it's what I believe.

Pay is not published. In many jobs, people have no idea what people get paid. If you can negotiate your salary, then you can earn more than someone else. But that's not sex discrimination, is it? If you can negotiate your salary, how is it discrimination if a man negotiates a better one? Or are we saying there should now be special treatment for women who do not feel they can negotiate?

amispartacus · 19/12/2016 22:30

But that's not sex discrimination, is it

It has nothing to do with sex discrimination but it is an issue for women if industry rewards people with more money because they can negotiate better.

Or are we saying there should now be special treatment for women who do not feel they can negotiate

Interesting question. Should industry reward people differently? Should it ask itself why they pay men more than women (in general) for the same job because the man has either negotiated better OR is more likely to be awarded a pay increase?

Such questions are at the heart of feminism. I am sure - as a woman - you would want to ensure that your pay was not dependant on your ability to negotiate but you were rewarded for how well you did your job and the value you brought to your company?

amispartacus · 19/12/2016 22:33

You keep mentioning sex discrimination a lot. Feminism is far more than that - analysing the context decisions happen in, the reasons, the social factors, social conditioning, messages from society etc - it's about asking why things happen and what changes need to be seen to change the environment.

It's not as simple as sex discrimination.

amispartacus · 19/12/2016 22:37

If you can negotiate your salary, how is it discrimination if a man negotiates a better one? Or are we saying there should now be special treatment for women who do not feel they can negotiate

Maybe things can be done differently

From www.hrmagazine.co.uk/article-details/pay-rises-should-womens-ability-to-negotiate-matter

Having rises decided solely on an individual’s ability to negotiate can lead to two employees who do the same job at the same level having different salaries, simply because one of them had better negotiation skills than the other. This could be a contributing factor to the gender pay gap. Basing pay rises solely on salary negotiations may also reward employees who are skilled at negotiating but may not be the strongest performers in other areas.

Options managers could explore instead of salary negotiations include creating a goal based reward system. Here, clear goals for the year are set with individuals to outline what they need to work towards to achieve a pay rise. This allows all employees to know how they need to perform, and means that everyone has an equal chance of achieving a pay increase. As well as personal performance, rewards can also be set out based on company performance, with employees all rewarded by the same amount or percentage when specific company objectives are achieved.

Salary negotiating is not just an issue for women; men who are less vocal and outgoing may also find it difficult to ask for a pay rise – and many feel that they shouldn’t have to, with their performances speaking for themselves. Anyone who is unfamiliar with the negotiating process, or nervous when put into such a situation, could be immediately at a disadvantage if salary decisions are made in that way. Managers and HR personnel need to look at their salary review processes holistically to ensure that all personality types are given the same opportunities to improve their careers and keep advancing, regardless of gender.

DeviTheGaelet · 19/12/2016 22:41

I'm thinting maybe we should stop "choosing" to have these babies and focus on our careers, let's see what happens to humanity if women stopped giving birth.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 19/12/2016 22:46

Would it be fair if a man took paternity leave for two years out of three, then returned to work at the same level as childless woman who had worked throughout? Of course it wouldn't and I can't see feminists being very happy about if if that happened.
We can't demand fairness then cry victim when that fairness goes against us. That's not fair

No, that wouldn't be fair. I can't see any feminists being unhappy about it though. All I can see is you suggesting they would be and then saying that wouldn't be fair

No but I have seen plenty of posts complaining about how women's careers have suffered because they have taken career breaks. I'm sure they have but what exactly do they think those people , men and women, who haven't taken career breaks or employers are supposed to do about it?

amispartacus · 19/12/2016 22:53

I'm sure they have but what exactly do they think those people , men and women, who haven't taken career breaks or employers are supposed to do about it

TBF - that's the kind of discussion rarely seen on MN - not on the feminists boards or elsewhere. Yet it is an important question

Datun · 19/12/2016 23:01

The gender pay gap is irrefutable . It exists. There are, of course, incidences where men are paid more than women for the same job. But as women fought for the right to equal pay, that is now illegal.

There are lots of subtle and nuanced reasons for the pay gap. And many are due to child caring reasons.

For instance, male employers place a lot of emphasis on long hours, despite this having no discernible effect after a certain number of hours. Flexible hours and job sharing counters this. When working mothers are in jobs where they are allowed to self direct hours (e.g. science) the pay gap is much less.

It's not sex discrimination as such, it's child carer discrimination. Until we see a cultural shift where men except half the burden of childcare it won't change. Women are penalised through being the main care giver. Just as men would be if they were. Interestingly, when men are the primary care giver, the pay gap tends to be even bigger.

Feminism would want a more equal share across the board.

Datun · 19/12/2016 23:18

As an aside most men who have children wouldn't even be able to have a career without someone doing the free, under valued, career penalising wife work.

Unless you want strangers raising your children, it is very difficult to tackle. But accommodating the caregiver by providing child friendly hours is a step in the right direction. I don't believe this will happen very quickly unless men are more involved in it. Why would it? It suits them.

I'd love to have a 'wife'.

OlennasWimple · 19/12/2016 23:40

Yy, Datun - I have long said that every working woman needs a wife!

Women in the US don't get long maternity leave (six weeks off work is standard, most of which is actually "disability leave"). And yet they still suffer a wage gap... Funny that.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 19/12/2016 23:53

As an aside most men who have children wouldn't even be able to have a career without someone doing the free, under valued, career penalising wife work

Really? How do you think couples who both work full time manage this ?

And why is it always described as "free" as if the female partner gets no benefit out of the male income?

Your comment about "strangers raising your children" is rather loaded.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 19/12/2016 23:55

Yy, Datun - I have long said that every working woman needs a wife!

No, not really. I'm sceptical about "wife work" to be honest - that it expands to fill the time available to do it.

derxa · 20/12/2016 00:16

For example if there was a job lifting heavy objects, a man could easily lift the objects, being physically stronger. A woman would need a piece of equipment such as a trolley to help her to move the objects. Should the employer decline to provide her with the trolley?
Yes

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 20/12/2016 00:31

It would be a rather foolish employer who did so or who made assumptions about the weight which any of his or her employees can lift without mechanical assistance.

Datun · 20/12/2016 01:00

Your comment about "strangers raising your children" is rather loaded.

Unless you have a family member who is willing to do the childcare it will be either a nanny or a nursery. By strangers I mean people whose investment in your child will never be as great as yours, or a that of a family member. I think that's obvious.

I've had both, a family member and a nursery. And I know there is a big difference.

From school age onwards, it's slightly easier. But a woman with a couple of children at home doing all the cleaning, cooking, washing shopping and childcare by herself, is very definitely doing a long and tiring job. It's often tedious and stressful at the same time.

Your scepticism about wife work expanding to fill the time available, Lass, is either personal experience which included a lot of luck, or a strange opinion.

Datun · 20/12/2016 01:05

Personally I don't think there is an easy answer. I know of 2 businesses run by women who have made it an aim to include flexible hours and job sharing. They don't discriminate by sex, but it happens that all their employees are women for this very reason. They are understanding of childcare responsibilities and are rewarded by exceptionally loyal staff.