To gt annoyed when people say about baby girl names...

[ChequeredPasta]

...shouldn't be too 'feminine'.

I enjoy lurking on the baby names thread. It's quite a happy, joyful thread really, people who are excited choosing names for their precious baby.

But what really boils my piss is the people on there who always seem to chime in when someone mentions that they like a name such as Poppy, Felicity, etc and say 'Oh, it's a bit twee and girly. What if they want to become a high court judge?'

Since when did being a female with a female name mean you couldn't become a high court judge?! It smacks of internalised sexism to me.

It reminds me of a time that I observed a (white) colleague asking a pregnant (white) colleague what she was going to call her baby. The pregnant colleague had a black husband. She answered 'Aeshia, we think', and the colleague answered " Oh, I'm not keen on that. It's a bit 'black' isn't it?" The pregnant colleague looked nonplussed, and answered, " Well, she will be black'.

Why do seemingly normal people perpetuate this nonsense?? I presume to call my daughter 'John' in order for her to seemingly have a better chance at becoming a high court judge.

And while we are at it, IMO the only reason that people are keen for their daughters to get a traditionally 'mans' job is because they are much better paid than traditional 'womens' jobs such as nursing, carework and teaching, because female traits and work is so undervalued. You know, because a male banker brings so much more to society than a careworker .

It seems that everything feminine is so devalued. Even the way that people encourage their daughters to play with 'boys things' (science sets, trucks etc), which I obs approve of, but when it comes to dressing a boy in pink, or giving him a 'feminine' name, or encouraging them to play nurses and carers. It's like the worse thing in the world a boy do is to act in a feminine way, and now girls too should be ashamed of their female names, their 'female' way of being, and their fannies. So the answer is to wipe out femaleness, call everybody steve, and destroy anything pink.

And I say this as a female with a non 'feminine' name, a well paid professional 'mans world' job, who loved pink and desperately wanted to be called Felicity as a child.

SO Mumsnet Jury....
WIBU to call my (fictional) 2 daughters and 2 sons as follows:

Delicacy
Kindness
Humility
Femininity

And strongly encourage them (in a tiger mum fashion) to ALL become high court judges to stick two fingers up to these twunts?

I don't see them as male, I went university and lived with women who were all highly academic scientists, architects, engineers etc. None of them had names that would be better placed in a cat, all of them had parents who placed value on education.

It's just perception though isn't it. It's not right but if I was handed a CV saying 'Eddy Smith' or 'Edward Smith', instantly I would see the second as a more professional mind, even if both daily were called Eddy.

I don't like "twee names" for either boys or girls, but I would suggest another more radical idea. If parents like such names why don't they change their own names rather than giving them to their children?
It's quite easily done legally
I would totally advocate young people being able to change their names at a certain age (not sure what that would be) to names that they chose for themselves, why should everyone have to go through life judged with one of the most personal things to them being something chosen by someone else?
My sister was called one of the "strong" female names listed through this thread and she disliked it so much she changed her name legally to her nick name, that she chose for herself, when she was 21.
Also back in the day, showing my age here, parents did not assign nick names to their children, nick names were what your friends called you, and usually bore no resemblance to your actual name, or what you chose to call yourself. Pet names or family names are what your parents called you and only family used them they did not insist that everyone else called you that name.

I work in an academic field and know Dr Rosie (x), her career is doing great. It's a completely normal name, just nothing to make a fuss about. I once looked up MP's names (in response to a baby name thread about how people couldn't be MPs or judges with certain names) and whilst there were lots of Marys and Jos, there were quite a few that Mumsnetters would have been convinced could never be the name of an MP.

It's just a name! I think there are far more obvious structural reasons why women end up not being High Court judges, the most obvious one being the Mumsnet 'trope' 'so my husband earns more than me so it made sense for me to be the one to give up work' (thereby ensuring that his earning potential, already higher, is rocketing whilst yours is plummeting). Names are really not the thing to be paying attention to if you are wondering why women called Poppy don't get into power.

Lunar you may claim not to, but you would be spectacularly obtuse of you were unaware that society does.

Education does not equal only science and maths and they should not be regarded as of greater educational value than literature and languages. Traditionally male subjects and fields should not be put on a pedestal or regarded as more valuable than traditionally female fields.

Only be breaking down the idea that men's work is valuable and women's work is valueless will anything ever change. The instant "go to" of a male dominated industry as a symbol of a successful life has to change if the gender gap is ever really going to disappear.

How does someone's name imply that their parents value education? Unless there's lots of kids running round somewhere called Thicko or Dunce I don't think you can say that. Perhaps you're judging the level of education you think parents have had based on the names they choose for their dc but that doesn't tell you whether they value it or not. And it certainly doesn't tell you about the academic ability of their children.

The thing is though, if you are put off by an obviously ethnic or obviously working class name then you're just going to be equally put off by an obviously ethnic or working class person.

So being Elizabeth instead of Shanique or Daisy-Mae might get you an interview but it's not going to get you the job if your face/ accent/ whatever doesn't pass the high court judge test.

I don't think that's how you become a high court judge anyway :o I strongly suspect you do not submit a CV and get invited to an interview at which your interviewers are surprised by your ethnicity/ accent because they don't already know you rather well, either personally or by reputation...

www.ukpolitical.info/female-members-of-parliament.htm

Here's the list of female MPs, it is mostly classic names of the slightly older generation (Helen, Rebecca, Katherine, Elizabeth etc).

There's also lots of more unusual names, including a Tulip (Siddiq)- just as well no-one told her flower names can't be MPs.

I didn't say that's how you became a high court judge - I said you won't get any job from someone bigoted in that way if your name doesn't pass the "high court judge" test.

That's really interesting foureyes Lots of mps have shortened names, unusual spellings, names from other cultures and names that that I imagine the average person might need help to spell. Maybe parliament is more progressive than the high court!

MPs are (as a cohort) a lot younger than judges - I suspect that's the difference.

Isn't the reasoning something like this: 'Women have had to fight to be taken seriously in professional, responsible, high-powered roles. Part of the reason is that they have been belittled and talked down to, often with diminutive names. This has all happened very recently. By calling your child a diminutive name, you conjure up these negative connotations and make it more difficult for your daughter to be taken seriously in a world where sexism is still very much an active force. The diminutive name may also, in some cases, be part of a wider modelling of roles that diminishes feminine responsibility, capability and expectations from an early age, which in turn links out to structural imbalances of power in society'.

I think other women might respond: 'Yes, but we are now at a transitional moment in society, where sexism is being challenged, and part of that challenge might be around reclaiming those names and associating them with empowered young women who are kicking ass in traditional male professions'.

I don't think either position is necessarily wrong, but I don't think either is remotely governed by a 'shame' at being female.

Of course there may be a few Gracie-Mae's who become successful doctors, judges, prime minister, whatever in future.

However, just like the children from disadvantaged backgrounds living in a workless household with uneducated parents might break the mould and do it if they are really clever and hard-working and get a few lucky breaks, that doesn't mean that all children from the same background can. Rather, they are the exception that proves the rule.

I suspect the same will be the case with names (to a much lesser extent of course).

So do you think that not giving a girl a 'strong' name devalues her?

I think giving her a name more suited to a kitten or a doll devalues her, yes. And I don't understand why parents would do that to a child. I know a kid called Honee-Kitten.....and I think its cruel and giving her a handicap from birth.

I hope all Jamie Oliver's kids become high court judges.

IMO the only reason that people are keen for their daughters to get a traditionally 'mans' job is because they are much better paid than traditional 'womens' jobs

I went into a traditional male fields - as I like the area and it paid well. With house prices and living costs what they are I'm not sure wanting higher pay is bad idea.

I was bloody annoyed that so many people tried to talk me out of the area and into more traditional areas for females - career advise suggested nursing - hate blood and bodily fluids and one science I wasn't taking was biology obviously a better fit .

I'm not sure about name but we did think could they live with the names as adults. There is a class correlation with names though - middle classes are I believe currently favouring traditional names so not sure how that is playing into prejudice about names and eventual outcomes.

A lot of "alternative" spellings just look like the parents used the Countdown method to make a name.

I disagree that the ire you speak of is limited to 'cutsey, girlie names' or anything sounding too feminine.

Plenty of boys names about which would be fine on a baby but not ideal in an adult, lots ending in 'y' too.

Or you could go for one of the sorts of names slebs have been using for boy babies that sound like dog names. Rocket, anyone? Boomer (that US Olympic swimmer.)?

Both categories of names also get the thumbs down, in my experience...

This is interesting.

Of course, we should not make assumptions about people based on something as arbitrary as a name. However, a couple of thoughts which occur to me about why even the best-intentioned sometimes do this.

We are sophisticated animals. We are to an extent programmed to read and respond viscerally to signs and signals on first encountering a new person.

Putting political correctness aside, some names, for example very cutesy names or "yoonique" spellings, do tend to have connotations of a particular background, including the dreaded "class", and level of educational achievement. That does not mean we are correct to make assumptions about people with such names, but until such names become mainstream, they are likely to produce a first impression that plugs into a stereotype. Reasonable people should aim to look past that, but not everyone does. I would make the same comment about other types of name which strike me on first hearing as pretentious.

Secondly, it seems we are in an age when the concept of gender is all over the place; you only have to look at all the threads about trans issues to see that. I think there is a tendency in some quarters to encourage a very stereotypically "fluffy" view of little girls. I'm thinking of pink clothes embroidered with slogans such as "Mummy's Little Princess" and "Future Footballer's wife", and pictures I see on FB of little girls, posing. Of course, boys are subject to the same "gendering", but not, I think, to quite the same extent.

I agree that being "feminine" (whatever that means) is not inconsistent with achievement. However, I think that a very cutesy presentation of females, including the types of names under discussion here, keys into a stereotype and seems odd to some people, (including me!). We should then acknowledge that, and make an effort to ignore it, but that isn't always going to happen.

Whilst even that comment is likely, I know, to arouse anger in some quarters - "Who are you to say femininity can't be pink and fluffy?" - again, that image presents an ingrained response in our society which does not signal

People are rude about baby names that's why I keep them to myself until baby is born.

pixie the tv doctor is not her real name it's a nick name

It would be interesting to find out what all the female high court judges are called.

Obviously Dr Pixie McKenna doesn't feel having the nickname holds her back though, from her TV career and Harley St practice.

People definitely do make assumptions based on names, or indeed whenever they have limited information, but you can't conclude from that that no-one with a cute/very feminine/odd name is barred from success in life. Their barriers are far more likely to be poor education, poverty, structural sexism and so on. Calling your child Penelope instead of Pixie won't fix that stuff at all (plus I love looking at American names on the credits of big shows like House of Cards and there are some crazy ones on there!)