To gt annoyed when people say about baby girl names...

[ChequeredPasta]

...shouldn't be too 'feminine'.

I enjoy lurking on the baby names thread. It's quite a happy, joyful thread really, people who are excited choosing names for their precious baby.

But what really boils my piss is the people on there who always seem to chime in when someone mentions that they like a name such as Poppy, Felicity, etc and say 'Oh, it's a bit twee and girly. What if they want to become a high court judge?'

Since when did being a female with a female name mean you couldn't become a high court judge?! It smacks of internalised sexism to me.

It reminds me of a time that I observed a (white) colleague asking a pregnant (white) colleague what she was going to call her baby. The pregnant colleague had a black husband. She answered 'Aeshia, we think', and the colleague answered " Oh, I'm not keen on that. It's a bit 'black' isn't it?" The pregnant colleague looked nonplussed, and answered, " Well, she will be black'.

Why do seemingly normal people perpetuate this nonsense?? I presume to call my daughter 'John' in order for her to seemingly have a better chance at becoming a high court judge.

And while we are at it, IMO the only reason that people are keen for their daughters to get a traditionally 'mans' job is because they are much better paid than traditional 'womens' jobs such as nursing, carework and teaching, because female traits and work is so undervalued. You know, because a male banker brings so much more to society than a careworker .

It seems that everything feminine is so devalued. Even the way that people encourage their daughters to play with 'boys things' (science sets, trucks etc), which I obs approve of, but when it comes to dressing a boy in pink, or giving him a 'feminine' name, or encouraging them to play nurses and carers. It's like the worse thing in the world a boy do is to act in a feminine way, and now girls too should be ashamed of their female names, their 'female' way of being, and their fannies. So the answer is to wipe out femaleness, call everybody steve, and destroy anything pink.

And I say this as a female with a non 'feminine' name, a well paid professional 'mans world' job, who loved pink and desperately wanted to be called Felicity as a child.

SO Mumsnet Jury....
WIBU to call my (fictional) 2 daughters and 2 sons as follows:

Delicacy
Kindness
Humility
Femininity

And strongly encourage them (in a tiger mum fashion) to ALL become high court judges to stick two fingers up to these twunts?

I work in a school and suspect that the majority of parents who gave their children virtue names are fairly disappointed in how things have turned out.

You work in a school, therefore how the fuck do you know how these people are going to turn out - by judging a person on their childhood? Pathetic.

Fanny Chmelar is a German Olympic Skier.

So if you lived in the U.K. would you think "Fuck everyone else, I want to call my dd Fanny and I''m going to do it?"

No, it's generally quite unusual for a parent to give a child a name that is a rude word in their own language. You can surely see the difference between choosing a name that has other very specific connotations in your own language and people choosing a name in their own language that means other things in other cultures?

It's only very recently there have been women in positions of power and there still aren't that many anyway. Same as there aren't many people from ethnic minorities, the working class and people with disabilities. I suppose if you see it as a tiny pool that can't be widened but you think you can get you and yours in through things in your control you'll try anything. Diversity and inclusivity are positive things, not to be stamped out with conformity.

I still love that chase episode where Bradly couldn't keep a straight face with Fanny Chmelar

So she is The SparrowHawk (I think her surname is Polish though). I don't think that makes Fanny a traditional German or Polish name though, it looks like one of those (like Kevin and Colin) that there was a brief fashion for adopting from English at one point...

Most of the popular names given to children in Germany these days wouldn't cause anyone to miss a beat if given to a British child, especially the girls names. Lots of Emmas and Amelies and Sophies and Hannahs and Emily/ Emilias, no Fannys!

Sparrowhawk- I did say if you lived in the U.K..........

Firstly, I think people are somehow failing to notice that what constitutes an 'old person', 'middle aged', etc. name changes over time! You might find it hard to imagine a 70 year old called Jamie, but that's because few current 70 year olds are called Jamie. Similarly, at the moment a stereotypical 'grandma' name might be Vera or Doris or something, but they're not inherently 'old' names, they're names that were popular in the 40s. Give it ten or twenty years and Tracy will be a classic 'grandma' name. What sounds either 'babyish' or 'old' now is more a reflection of how old the average holder of that name is than their inherent qualities.

Secondly, on all these threads I find people really catastrophize over what having an 'unusual' name might lead to. I have a 'weird' name that people very often need telling how to spell/pronounce, and people quite often think it's a creative misspelling by my parents (it's not, it's just not an English name). It's mildly annoying and very occasionally an idiot gets a bit snooty about it. It's not some sort of terrible burden and I find most of the claims about this pretty hysterical.

Thirdly (and finally - sorry for the epic post!), it's pretty clear that all the actual consequences of unusual names are the result of class and/or racial prejudice, and it's really not clear to me that names can alleviate that. All those 'sending out the same CVs but with different names' studies - ok, but then what happens when 'Jane' (who is Asian) turns up for her interview at the place that wouldn't have interviewed Aisha? Or when Alexandra (who has a strong regional accent) is interviewed by people who would have rejected Daisy-Mae? Do we really think that they're now going to get a fair chance?

You work in a school, therefore how the fuck do you know how these people are going to turn out - by judging a person on their childhood? Pathetic

I'm guessing that your virtue name must be Pleasance.

I agree with you op. And with the sheer number of children being called Daisy, Poppy and Lily in this generation I find it difficult to believe that many of them won't have 'highly respected' jobs, such as a high court judge. They are just the current popular names and it won't be unusual to see them everywhere in 20-30 years time.

I have a very cutesy, girly name. I am very successful in a very highly respected profession. Hasn't held me back

All those 'sending out the same CVs but with different names' studies - ok, but then what happens when 'Jane' (who is Asian) turns up for her interview at the place that wouldn't have interviewed Aisha? Or when Alexandra (who has a strong regional accent) is interviewed by people who would have rejected Daisy-Mae? Do we really think that they're now going to get a fair chance?

That is a really good point Chequered - but getting your foot in the door is often the most difficult hurdle to overcome. Once you are there at interview you have, at least, got more chance than if your CV went in the bin before it was even read.

I do agree btw that really we should be fighting prejudice in all forms - toys should not be gendered, school subjects should not be gendered, jobs should not be thought of as masculine or feminine, and it goes without saying that racial and class prejudice are absolutely wrong.

Very few people consciously sacrifice their own children on that alter though - most who give their children names which may work against them to some degree for some reason do it without being aware that may be a consequence, rather than as a deliberate defiance of the flaws in society.

People seem to forget that the world is changing, while to us Lexi-Rai and Honey Boo seem completely inappropriate for middle age women who want respect, by the time all these babies are in their 40's this will be a lot more mainstream. Who knows, perhaps calling your lawyer Princess Sparkle Pants will be normal in the future?

It'll take more than 40 years..........

I guess at least those with hyphonated names can at least drop one of the parts - Lexie-Rae becomes Lexie which is implicitly taken to be a contraction of Alexis (which is a unisex name)...

Not sure how that works for Honey Boo... Honey or Boo...

But yes prejudice is bad, people can overcome their names (or change them...)

I think the fact is it shouldn't matter, but some names can be a disadvantage in some situations - to what extent probably is hard to measure accurately.

I think a long, fairly classic name with lots of versatile nickname options might actually be the best all purpose contingency plan but I failed to choose that kind of names for my own children so I evidently didn't think about it enough :o

Margaret, they might have a reasonable chance, as people are generally unaware they are discriminating in this way in relation to names; if a real candidate is sitting in front of them, it is actually quite possible that they may be judged fairly (and anyway, it may not be the same person conducting the interview as sifted the CVs).

Someone above mentioned their friend 'Alex(andra)' who felt that using a unisex name on her CV helped her in her male-dominated profession. A have a friend called Nicky who feels the same (most women her age called 'Nicola' seem to shorten to 'Nikki'). Sometimes the first hurdle is the highest.

None of this means that discrimination over names is okay, but it does happen.

And I still loathe twee names (be they Lillee-Mai or Buddy fucking Bear).

I agree that many traditionally female pursuits are devalued. Indeed, when women take over previously male-dominated professions, the status of that profession goes down. Yet women often do a terrific job.

It's not just the name though is it, it's the parents that chose the names. Ds1 went to nursery with an Isla-Boo, Honey Mae, kitty and Lottie-Lou.

It's not the names that will stop them in the future, but the families attitudes and upbringing they are having. Those children will be lucky to get a handful of gcse's between them never mind a powerful job. Their parents just don't place any priority over education. I'd absolutely love to be proved wrong and for them to all become scientists and engineers.

I saw an airline employee at a check in desk recently and her name badge said Happiness. She was really beautiful and smiley as well, so it suited her.

Virtue names are tricky. My friend Felicity had crippling MH problems and attempted suicide twice and a girl at school who was called Verity was far from honest, a real shit-stirrer.

I also knew an really sour miserable woman called Dawn. I felt if Dawn was that gloomy I'd go straight back to bed.

Lunar why scientists and engineers? I think you are rather proving the OP's point there! Do you believe that doing a traditionally male job is the definition of success?

Bobo exactly

I always think of this article about how computer programming was originally viewed as a female job.

www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/

I've got a 'cutesy' name with a posher long version on my birth certificate - think Lizzie and Elizabeth but not as nice as that. Nobody has ever ever called me by the long-version, but I feel embarrassed by the 'cutesy' version now that i'm a 36 year-old professional so i try to use the long-version at work, or if I'm dealing with the bank or whatever.

I'm glad I have the option of the long version, because what some parents forget is that, yes you should give your child a name that you like, but it's their name and not yours. If you pick something yoooonique or 'cute' then there's a good chance your child won't grow up to like it. It can feel a bit weird to be embarrassed by your own name to be honest.

"What changed? Well, male programmers wanted to elevate their job out of the “women’s work” category. They created professional associations and discouraged the hiring of women. Ads began to connect women staffers with error and inefficiency. They instituted math puzzle tests for hiring purposes that gave men who had taken math classes an advantage, and personality tests that purported to find the ideal “programming type.” Frink writes:

According to test developers, successful programmers had most of the same personality traits as other white-collar professionals. The important distinction, however, was that programmers displayed “disinterest in people” and that they disliked “activities involving close personal interaction.” It is these personality profiles, says Ensmenger, that originated our modern stereotype of the anti-social computer geek.

And so here we are today, with a world computer programmers who are expected to be male, nerdy and antisocial—an odd, self-fulfilling prophecy that forgets the women that the entire field was built upon."