To gt annoyed when people say about baby girl names...

[ChequeredPasta]

...shouldn't be too 'feminine'.

I enjoy lurking on the baby names thread. It's quite a happy, joyful thread really, people who are excited choosing names for their precious baby.

But what really boils my piss is the people on there who always seem to chime in when someone mentions that they like a name such as Poppy, Felicity, etc and say 'Oh, it's a bit twee and girly. What if they want to become a high court judge?'

Since when did being a female with a female name mean you couldn't become a high court judge?! It smacks of internalised sexism to me.

It reminds me of a time that I observed a (white) colleague asking a pregnant (white) colleague what she was going to call her baby. The pregnant colleague had a black husband. She answered 'Aeshia, we think', and the colleague answered " Oh, I'm not keen on that. It's a bit 'black' isn't it?" The pregnant colleague looked nonplussed, and answered, " Well, she will be black'.

Why do seemingly normal people perpetuate this nonsense?? I presume to call my daughter 'John' in order for her to seemingly have a better chance at becoming a high court judge.

And while we are at it, IMO the only reason that people are keen for their daughters to get a traditionally 'mans' job is because they are much better paid than traditional 'womens' jobs such as nursing, carework and teaching, because female traits and work is so undervalued. You know, because a male banker brings so much more to society than a careworker .

It seems that everything feminine is so devalued. Even the way that people encourage their daughters to play with 'boys things' (science sets, trucks etc), which I obs approve of, but when it comes to dressing a boy in pink, or giving him a 'feminine' name, or encouraging them to play nurses and carers. It's like the worse thing in the world a boy do is to act in a feminine way, and now girls too should be ashamed of their female names, their 'female' way of being, and their fannies. So the answer is to wipe out femaleness, call everybody steve, and destroy anything pink.

And I say this as a female with a non 'feminine' name, a well paid professional 'mans world' job, who loved pink and desperately wanted to be called Felicity as a child.

SO Mumsnet Jury....
WIBU to call my (fictional) 2 daughters and 2 sons as follows:

Delicacy
Kindness
Humility
Femininity

And strongly encourage them (in a tiger mum fashion) to ALL become high court judges to stick two fingers up to these twunts?

Handbag I agree with you. It is sad that the people with these views are going to be the employees, teachers, police officers and judges.
It is something that I have always known but people do not even seem to question these views and accept it as normal.

Sorry Rrross1ges!
I'm an Elizabeth convert now

I always spell the shortened version of my name the masculine way "think Leslie instead of the traditional Lesley" I find it hilarious to see people's behaviour when they realise I'm a woman especially if we sent many emails before actually meeting face to face!

Last few posts seem to have spectacularly missed the point, including OP's.

It's not that people on this thread think that it's acceptable to be sexist/classist/racist, we're saying that, unfortunately, society is, or can be. Therefore, most people who understand that wouldn't choose to give their own child a potential extra hurdle to overcome or something that might hold them back, even if it's not fair or right that X thing (eg name) should hold them back. Most people want their child to have as easy a life as possible and wouldn't intentionally do something that might cause them difficulties. There is a battle to be won on whether it's "fair", but I wouldn't use my DC to make the point.

DH is a doctor, and know doctors called Poppy, Lily etc. We also know of a Barrister called Lauren, and one called Gracie. It hasn't affected any of them because why the fuck would it?

How do you know it hasn't? So they are doctors or judges, but how do you know that people, be they patients, people who read their CVs, to haven't made a judgement on them? That they haven't had to work a little bit harder than the equivalently qualified and experienced white middle-class man to get to where they are? That they wouldn't have progressed further? Nobody is saying women with twee, childish names will never be successful, they're just saying it may make it more difficult, if they come up against someone with prejudice who is judging their professional capabilities.

You may think you're a feminist, but if you are buying into a system that values whiteness and maleness above all else, you are part of the problem. Have my first ever

It's not about being/not being Feminist, it's about acknowledging the society we're operating in. Giving an adult a child's name will make people think "child" when they see it. Which doesn't convey professionalism, whether man or woman. Eg Benji, Alfie, Richie-Roo, or Lexxie-Grace, Molly-Mae etc.

If I received a CV from a Richie-Roo, I'd feel a bit sorry for him. I hope I would be able to see past it though. But I don't doubt that a lot of people would laugh and move straight on to the next CV.

Voice of reason aye.

AyeAmarok -
But the names we are talking about are Daisy, Lily, Poppy etc. Old ladies names. My Gradma was called Lily, for example. I believe the current assumption would be that these names are 'solidly middle class'. Thus, my argument is, if you advise someone not to call their child Poppy, because it might 'hold them back', you are saying that a feminine name, being female, is a disadvantage. Which is revolting and mysogynist.

Richie-Roo and Lexxie-Grace would probably be classed as 'Chav' names, and so would be discrimated against for a different reason. IT makes me very sad, but that is not the point of my OP. My point was, why on earth are people buying into the whole 'girly and female is worse' bullshit

But I don't doubt that a lot of people would laugh and move straight on to the next CV.

Used to work in headhunting. Never used to overlook candidates on the basis of their names and we had a few that have been mentioned here and some infinitely worse ones too.

Frankly some posh names are ridiculous but you don't see them getting mentioned here.

Horatio Odysseus Octavio anyone?

Ok so dinosaurs can happily dismiss Ashlee's or Amal's cv knowing no one gives a shit and white, middle class dominance continues. If you're invested in that then you're not going to want it to change are you? There's less competition for high court judge or whatever if all the working class and ethnic minority applicants are discounted from the word go. Even if a couple have hid it with their acceptably white middle class names, if prejudice is running that deep they're not going to get past interview. If everyone chose their dcs names from the acceptable list of middle class names we're not suddenly going to get a meritocracy.

30 years ago, could a woman even be a high court judge? I don't believe this is as tolerant and diverse as society in general is capable of being and we have to suck it up and all name our dc Phillip or Elizabeth.

Horatio Odysseus Octavio - flipping heck!

BUT little Horatio is presumably male, white and upper/middle class.

So that's OK then.

Quite, OP.

But that's you, daft. And while that's great, you can't say that nobody else would. It's been proven that plenty of people would and do overlook candidates for reasons like this, so if you have a name like that and go for a job and the HR person or hiring manager is one of these narrow-minded judgemental people, then you won't get an interview.

Not fair, no, but that's how it is.

Just like if you are a woman/foreign you may not get an interview, so some women deliberately avoid putting their name on their CV so they can compete on the same terms as the men and their qualifications and experience be judged alone. Or a woman of 25-35 going for an interview might not wear her wedding rings or might not mention that she has children, in case it goes against her as the interviewer might think she'll be wanting babies soon and going on Mat Leave, or will be unreliable she has children. Again, not fair, or legal, but that's how it is.

We can try and change it, but without throwing ourselves under a bus to do so, as it's our families who will pay the price if we decide to be the sacrificial lamb to prove the point. Plus, it's easier to drive change from the inside or positions of power.

Ive named my DDs Hollie and Amy.

Why didn't I name them Elizabeth and Bertha? Because I didn't want to.

Who is going to be saying your child's name the most? You and your family. Do you want to be calling a name you don't like up the stairs? No.

However, if you would be too embarrassed to shout it across the park I wouldn't name your child it.

People do judge names, subconsciously or not. If you call a child Jayden, Aleesha, Lily-babe or Tiger, for example (real names), they will face assumptions about their backgrounds. Also, as much as I applaud individuality,I think some parents are being selfish by projecting their desire to be different onto a child. IMO children want to fit in, not stand out. It's also a pain having to spell out a non-standard spelling of a name (trust me!). Daisy-boo, unless she's a celebrity child, with all the baggage that that brings, is going to constantly battle prejudices about her infantilised name. Why should she have to?

What are acceptable names then? According to various posters on this thread they can't be too feminine, too cute, have more than one spelling, be a shortened version of another name, be working class in origin or sound, be too foreign sounding, be too unusual, be too fashionable, belong to a celebrity offspring, be difficult to spell etc. I'm sure I've missed some of the 'rules' out.

Handbag

The acceptable names are:
Elizabeth. Name of the queen. Old English name. Many short versions. So old and established that it would be rude to discriminate against.
Alexandra Easily shortened to Alex. This means that hopefully no one will realise that Alex is a female, and therefore crap and unemployable.

Kills self

Kills self

No need, the Queen will behead you on Christmas morning then roast you and serve you to the corgis for slagging off her name 🐕🍗

Nobody tell those Corgis about my oldest son, Delicacy.

I would like to see a mumsnet approved list name too.

Iamdaft YES YES YES re posh names. And funnily enough they really don't hold them back. How do you knowers aside, because maybe those of us who employ people or work in law etc know cause we fucking well do the job and don't need your amateur socratic act.

99.9% of too-girly comes with a dose of too-common, I'm afraid. Felicity vs Daisy-Mai for example. In my family's case, "too Irish" would be un-pc so the head tilt from the West London ignorant snob bitch would be "too girly".

Thankfully in London there are so many nationalities that no one bats an eyelid at any name. And you get all the names in all the careers.
I cannot tell you how utterly desperate the White Company Middle Class Clone Crew are desperate for it not to be true.
Because then it's a name, not the huge and very real issues with opportunities and further/higher education. It's a name/sexist thing, not a class thing setting their not-all-posh-people radar off.

My parents were very aware of the snobbery as they both came from immigrant families from Catholic countries. Big prejudice back in the day. As a result my name is one of the plainest, least varied, interdenominational, Biblical names you can imagine ... I could be from anywhere and any age. I could be Christian, Jewish or Muslim. It's interesting but to some extent I know I was named in shame to some extent, and it rankles.

Well, I'm an Elizabeth and have considered Daisy for DC due January...

But maybe this is a non-issue where I live.

HandbagCrab couldn't agree with you more. And my name is Araminta!

I'm really dismayed to read that so many feel that having a very feminine name devalues a girl :( don't give in to that thinking! Why should a girl have to have a masculine or neutral name and have a traditionally masculine career to be successful? These attitudes have to change, and the change starts at home.

Ah Lizzy and Lexie are ok then! :)

What people mean is: 'Why call your daughter something feminine, when you could call her something that sounds more male/Unisex, and therefore better?' Because being male/not female is the best.

Never encountered this view - but then I don't frequent the name boards on here.

names.darkgreener.com/

This is a name checker over time - as far as I can see Lily, Rose, Daisy are much more popular than in in 1996.

Just echoing what AyeAmarok says. As a female myself I know that I have to work harder and proof I'm just as good and as smart as that middle class white men. I have been made redundant along with other mothers at a company with a dubious selection criteria. Just because I'm doing ok now doesn't mean I haven't felt I would have done better if I were a man.

Equally just because someone with a working class name doing well doesn't mean he hasn't been on the receiving end of prejudices.

And just because I understand the females have it harder in the workplace to achieve equality doesn't mean I am an anti feminist. It just means I'm aware of the problem. I work with a few part timers and I think their work is great.

I don't think it's about not calling children feminine names - as people have said multiple times, it works for boys too! That Horacio one mentioned above is just awful and I think they would also be judged on that name.

Don't see an issue with Lily, I can't see why that would hold anyone back, ditto to Poppy, Daisy etc. It's the names like Lexi-Mae and Apple, either very chavvy or overly posh or random and I think they would be judged. Krystal (with a K) is another I think people will have to work hard to overcome, not impossible, but hard.

I think it works differently for people with foreign names in the U.K. I haven't really found they are judged in the same way. If people are dismissive based on foreign names, they are a racist and not the sort of person I would want to be around anyway.
That being said, you will probably find the same connotations of certain foreign names do exist in the contry of origin as some English names do here.