To gt annoyed when people say about baby girl names...

[ChequeredPasta]

...shouldn't be too 'feminine'.

I enjoy lurking on the baby names thread. It's quite a happy, joyful thread really, people who are excited choosing names for their precious baby.

But what really boils my piss is the people on there who always seem to chime in when someone mentions that they like a name such as Poppy, Felicity, etc and say 'Oh, it's a bit twee and girly. What if they want to become a high court judge?'

Since when did being a female with a female name mean you couldn't become a high court judge?! It smacks of internalised sexism to me.

It reminds me of a time that I observed a (white) colleague asking a pregnant (white) colleague what she was going to call her baby. The pregnant colleague had a black husband. She answered 'Aeshia, we think', and the colleague answered " Oh, I'm not keen on that. It's a bit 'black' isn't it?" The pregnant colleague looked nonplussed, and answered, " Well, she will be black'.

Why do seemingly normal people perpetuate this nonsense?? I presume to call my daughter 'John' in order for her to seemingly have a better chance at becoming a high court judge.

And while we are at it, IMO the only reason that people are keen for their daughters to get a traditionally 'mans' job is because they are much better paid than traditional 'womens' jobs such as nursing, carework and teaching, because female traits and work is so undervalued. You know, because a male banker brings so much more to society than a careworker .

It seems that everything feminine is so devalued. Even the way that people encourage their daughters to play with 'boys things' (science sets, trucks etc), which I obs approve of, but when it comes to dressing a boy in pink, or giving him a 'feminine' name, or encouraging them to play nurses and carers. It's like the worse thing in the world a boy do is to act in a feminine way, and now girls too should be ashamed of their female names, their 'female' way of being, and their fannies. So the answer is to wipe out femaleness, call everybody steve, and destroy anything pink.

And I say this as a female with a non 'feminine' name, a well paid professional 'mans world' job, who loved pink and desperately wanted to be called Felicity as a child.

SO Mumsnet Jury....
WIBU to call my (fictional) 2 daughters and 2 sons as follows:

Delicacy
Kindness
Humility
Femininity

And strongly encourage them (in a tiger mum fashion) to ALL become high court judges to stick two fingers up to these twunts?

I know we're talking about pageant names but just to say I called my dd Lily and massively regret it now. Yes its pretty and cute but shes nearly 11, very serious & studious and im worried ive given her a big disadvantage on uni or job applications. Shes not 'flowery' at all! She doesnt particularly like it either & wanted to be known by her middle name but her dad was having none of it

The OP doesn't make any sense to me. As previous posters have said, being saddled with a childlike name in adulthood may not be advantageous to the person concerned. It is slightly cringeworthy (in my subjective opinion).

There is a serious newsreader type called Daisy I feel abit sorry for her on the name front as her name sounds incongruous. I think this applies to Sonny and Teddy as well as to Poppy and Daisy-Mae. As a parent I think its your job to give a name that will work throughout life not just when you are a curly haired moppet so we personally avoided childlike frilly playful names. Others can knock themselves out, but if you ask for my opinion on a baby names thread, that is what I will say.

Yes Phoebe yours sounds like my DD. Aged 10 very self contained, studious and elegant. I considered a way out name that began with the same letter as our surname when I was first pregnant. Decided against it thank god she would have hated it, it would have been totally wrong for her. DD2 would have carried it off but not DD1.

I think "Bobbie" is a transliteration- but I don't know what of.

My dc have "cutsey" names that I'm sure many of you would balk at. I was a young mum and tbh their name suits them. They're still in school but are top of their year academically and have represented the school in regional maths and debating competitions and about to represent the school at a languages competition.

They are articulate, intellegent and confident which will blow any prejudgement about their name out the water, and it does.

I hate middle class stereotyping. Whenever I go to collect dc from parties they shout through that their sister is here to collect them and when my mum goes they assume she's their mum which makes me laugh as mum says she hates the teenage stage

Fwiw I think the try hard brigade kids are going to struggle more with their ludicrous names from ancient Greece and whatnot.

My point, badname, is that names that don't fit the standard of perfection demanded by this thread really don't doom one for life. And given the example names that people are giving (Daisy, ffs! How uptight do you have to be to consider Daisy A Name Too Far?!), I stand by my assertion that the 1960s equivalent of the self-appointed name police on this thread would have told those women's parents that their choices 'aren't exactly High Court Judge material, are they?'.

I think Felicity is a great name. To me it doesn't sound 'too feminine', whatever that may be, but a name a real efficient woman might have. Actually it's lovely for a little girl all the way through to adulthood, but be prepared for her, as a teen to only answer to Flick or Fliss.

margaret

I'm outing myself completely here but my name is Bobbie. Short for nothing. I love it.

Have a good job and two degrees, ta very much.

Fwiw I think the try hard brigade kids are going to struggle more with their ludicrous names from ancient Greece and whatnot.

Well, they'll be fine, and that's because - sorry to repeat myself - names are reflections and not causes of class inequalities. I knew two Persephones at university; both have done perfectly fine despite their ludicrous name because they both dripped so much privilege that they'd have had to actually try quite hard to do badly in life.

Agree felicity is a great name. Daisy is twee and childlike. In my opinion that I am allowed to voice.

It's a minefield though - I was at school with a very large hefty Willow.

iamadaftcoo Sorry, I think you've misunderstood my post, which was sarcastic. I am completely unsurprised that both you and Bobbie Cheema-Grubb have done well in life with your 'cute' names, because I don't think your name makes much difference to your life chances. I was pointing out that I'm pretty certain that plenty of people on this thread would have claimed incorrectly that 'Bobbie' was no name for a high court judge.

Oh I see, apologies I misunderstood your post :)

We agree then.

Oooooh, first time ever I've had a post on the trending section!
pats self on back

Some very interesting points.

I find it curious that nobody mentions Lucy, Marie, Sophie as 'twee' names. They sound almost identical to the names I mentioned, but aren't 'top 10' at the moment. Is that the difference? Or is it that flower names are associated with, you know, flowers. And flowers are 'girly'. And girl things are crap? My all time favourite name is Lily. It's absolutely beautiful, and I think it is a very strong, powerful name. I first fell in love with it reading Harry Potter, with Lily Potter being a strong and intelligent character. Lucy sounds almost identical, and is another beautiful name. What's the difference exactly?

Also, without going into the class argument too much, people sadly tend to be opposed to hyphenated names as they are associated with more 'working class' families.

Reading some of the responses has got me riled up again.

DH is a doctor, and know doctors called Poppy, Lily etc. We also know of a Barrister called Lauren, and one called Gracie. It hasn't affected any of them because why the fuck would it? I'm sure no one on here seriously believes that just being called Holly would hold you back in any meaningful way. What people mean is: 'Why call your daughter something feminine, when you could call her something that sounds more male/Unisex, and therefore better?' Because being male/not female is the best.

Look at what happens to 'Unisex names' when they become associated with women i.e. Leslie, Hilary. They become 'girls names' and lose their status. I know of a male Courtney (unisex name), and people still smirk when they hear his name. The joke is 'Oh that's a GIRLS name, hahaha, poor him'

I suppose I would say to the people who use the whole 'Well it's not YOUR name, they have to live with it, why call them something twee and girly when it may hold them back' argument...

Imagine hearing someone say 'Well it's not YOUR name, they have to live with it, why call them something ETHNIC and FOREIGN when it may hold them back'. That is the argument of someone who sees being 'non-white' as a disadvantage, with lower status.

And so, using the 'twee' and 'girly' argument is IMO seeing being female as a disadvantage, with lower status.

You are seeing being white and male as the ideal. Thus, baby names such as Alexandra (lovely name) with the intention of using 'Alex' is perpetuating this idea that being white and male is best. You are encouraging people to try and get their daughters to 'pass'.

We should all be challenging this bullshit, not reinforcing it insidiously by discouraging people from naming their female child a feminine name in case it 'holds them back'.

That's what I mean by internalised sexism. You may think you're a feminist, but if you are buying into a system that values whiteness and maleness above all else, you are part of the problem. Have my first ever

HTH

Ha, just googled HTH, thinking it means Hate the Haters.
Turns out it means Hope that Helps.

Not the message I was going for, but.... well, I'll go with it.

Sorry but Lexi, Scarlett, Honey etc sound like they are strippers!

Although, also, I do take the point that people post on baby names to get a variety of opinions, and I wouldn't want to dictate what people can or can't say.

Just hate the denigration of all things female.

Off to eat some

Hate the Haters

What on earth did you think it meant when people asked a question needing help?

Soubriquet - You know, I did wonder!

Suddenly things make a lot more sense

All 3 of mine have traditional names that serve three purposes - the original name is the official one and appears on letters, applications, CVs etc. The shortened version suits them now as young adults and the cutesy version with the 'eee' sound suited them as toddlers.
These are not the names, but think something like:
Kathryn - Kate- Katie
Daniel - Dan - Danny
Richard - Rich - Richie

So wish id had that foresight put [facepalm]

So op if you were hiring for some top job you wouldn't choose an Elizabeth for instance over lily or Daisie?

Definitely wouldn't Phoebebo

As I said, I know several very successful Lilys and Poppy's. And several of my DHs doctor friends have called their babies Lily, Poppy, Daisy, Violet etc. All lovely children.
If I saw the following on the interview sheet:

Daisy Smith
Elizabeth Smith
Poppy Smith
Alexandra Smith

I genuinley wouldn't bat an eyelid. I certainly wouldn't be thinking to myself: 'Well, Elizabeth has this in the bag', which seems to be the implication from some of the above posts. How bizarre, eh?

Interestingly, I never liked the name Elizabeth, as the couple that I went to school with were a bit... 'nanchild' as my DH would say. As in, a bit 'uncool', timid, wet. Very unfair of me to say, but hey ho.
Then, a close friend had a baby Elizabeth, calls her baby Lizzy. Really suits her, it's lovely. So I've had to confront my own predjudice. Which is good really, keeps me in check

I am a black woman married to a white man. Our DD has a 'traditional' rather girly name, one that was mentioned above. We chose it because we love it. It's not about ignoring my African heritage - I am a proud and beautiful black woman - but about embracing what we love.

I'm just getting from this thread over and over that being white and middle class is the ideal and if for whatever reason you're not white and middle class you should emulate it where you can. Also being male is better than being female so feminine names that can't be shortened to a male equivalent aren't as good as ones that can.

It's not ok to be prejudice because of someone's name. It just isn't. Araminta is not intrinsically more worthy or valuable to society than Angie or Amal or Ashlee because she has a white middle class name.

"as people are generally unaware they are discriminating in this way in relation to names"

This was covered in HR training. There are even studies which show that it's people who think they don't discriminate who displayed the most discriminatory behaviour in role-plays and paper exercises.

Forming impressions on names is so very deeply ingrained that it's universal. The way ahead is to recognise that you and everyone else does it, and then aim off (in the HR context, learn to ignore it).

Names from other cultures and languages stand out as 'other'. As far as the MN baby names topic goes, most posters are Anglophones resident in UK. They may not be able to appreciate a name in it's original setting/language, but might be able to give worthwhile views on just how 'other' it would be if used here.

Interestingly, I never liked the name Elizabeth, as the couple that I went to school with were a bit... 'nanchild' as my DH would say. As in, a bit 'uncool', timid, wet. Very unfair of me to say, but hey ho

Ahem

Actually I agree, it's a fucking horrible name (my middle name is appalling - maybe it was a difficult birth and my parents were trying to punish me)