Page 7 | To think burlesque IS empowering?

Neverknowing · 2016-12-04T10:14:43+00:00

Following on from the 'burlesque' thread, I want to ask peoples opinion on burlesque I think if a woman is getting paid to do something they enjoy and they feel empowered by it then there's nothing wrong? I have a friend who did burlesque for years and said men and women who went to the shows were always respectful and she loved doing it! Does anyone have any reasons they think burlesque isn't empowering?

klassykringle · 04/12/2016 13:54

Personally I dislike the punters and people who use them more than the women themselves 1DAD, fairly sure I'm not alone in that.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 04/12/2016 14:07

I suppose you could say burlesque is empowering if you said EVERYTHING was empowering.

Brushed my teeth this morning - so empowering to have fresh mouth.

DS did footy practice - so empowering to kick a ball around a field.

However, people don't do that, they (women) say it usually a. For naked photo-shoots or b. For stripping.

Boundaries · 04/12/2016 14:16

I think this is intetesting:

[[http://www.unwomen.org/en/partnerships/businesses-and-foundations/womens-empowerment-principles ]]

cantmakeme · 04/12/2016 14:31

bratt you said: Personally I would find nothing "empowering" about stripping half naked and twirling round a pole. 'Empowering" would be a degree in engineering or being able to support your family alone because you earn so much.

I am curious about money - it's ok for money to be "empowering"? But only if used to support a family. And a degree is empowering if it's in one of the STEM subjects (traditionally "male")? Women must actually become like traditional men in order to be empowered?

There are various attributes seen as positive in society, such as being powerful in business, being kind, being funny, being financially secure, being intelligent ...and yes, being attractive or even sexy. But only one of those tends to upset people - yep the last one.

1DAD2KIDS · 04/12/2016 15:29

It is an intresting point on gender inequality. Financial empowerment being different for men and women in different fields. For example the top male catwalk models earn far less than there female counterparts for the same work. I guess this is just an issue of demand. I would hazard a guess and suspect the top burlesque performers earn more than the best male strippers.

It is ironic how promote the importance of power but complain when that has come of the back of looks or sexy work. Especially when of these methods of empowerment are the reserve of the female world. We live in a world of double standards.

But is more intresting is who we measure success and empowerment in society. I suppose to follow the current rules money is power. But is that how we should measure power?

EvenTheWind · 04/12/2016 15:30

Again, why isn't accountancy being described as empowering, if it's about earning money?

user1480182169 · 04/12/2016 15:35

and yes, being attractive or even sexy. But only one of those tends to upset people - yep the last one

Nobody is remotely upset by anyone feeling attractive or sexy. It's really a rather stupid thing to claim, given that the entire sodding society constantly expects women to try and be more attractive and sexy!
People are bothered by those claiming that taking your clothes off in public is automatically "empowering" if you feel attractive and sexy doing it.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 04/12/2016 15:39

Being sexy doesn't 'upset' people.

Pretending that being sexy is "power" is embarrassing for everyone.

"Ladies, forget education, (not empowering) forget independence (not empowering) forget self-sufficiency, (not empowering) twirling around in your pants (empowering) is what it's all about."

Elendon · 04/12/2016 15:40

Dad does Donald Trump earn more than the top male stripper, or top male pornographic actor? Donald, has after all, empowered himself to be President Elect, despite having had no previous experience in political office.

Elendon · 04/12/2016 15:42

Nobody cares about someone who is sexy. One person's sexy is another person's ugh! In real life.

ShebaShimmyShake · 04/12/2016 15:48

Why do so many people assume burlesque performers can't possibly have degrees or decent salaries?

The reason we're not discussing PhDs is because there's not much debate about whether they're respectable. There clearly is debate regarding burlesque, so that's why we're talking about it. But why do so many people think a woman who enjoys burlesque must be stupid?

How offensive.

user1480182169 · 04/12/2016 15:58

Why do so many people assume burlesque performers can't possibly have degrees or decent salaries?

Nobody said they can't. It doesn't matter how educated they are, other than the fact that it makes it even odder that they choose burlesque to be the most empowering thing they do.

corythatwas · 04/12/2016 15:58

letsghostdance Sun 04-Dec-16 12:51:14

"As for everyone judging women for doing burlesque and saying "how can it possibly be empowering" etc, can't you see how judging women for making those choices ... is removing female choice and empowerment?"

Really? So judging any woman for any choice she makes is removing female choice and empowerment???? And it is on those terms we claim equality with men????

ShebaShimmyShake · 04/12/2016 16:05

Why do you assume they think burlesque is the most empowering thing they do? Why aren't they allowed to enjoy it as part of their lives?

Every time women enjoy something with a sexual element, the same tired and ignorant assumptions and definitions are revived. It's offensive and depressing.

MadMadDonna · 04/12/2016 16:06

Oh FFS - this old shit again

You can call it burlesque all you like, it is still STRIPPING FGS!

EvenTheWind · 04/12/2016 16:09

Sheba

Not about enjoying. About bullshittery of empowerment,

HTH

user1480182169 · 04/12/2016 16:09

Why aren't they allowed to enjoy it as part of their lives?

You really don 't get it, do you?

Nobody cares if you take your clothes off. Nobody cares whether you enjoy it or not, nobody cares if you feel sexy or empowered. Nobody gives a flying shit.

They do care when people blather on about how empowering it is, as if this was an objective fact, they do care when you don't recognise your immense privilege, when you deny the history behind it, and when you claim the whole thing as some kind of feminist victory.

If you take your clothes off in public you're just another stripper. Own it.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 04/12/2016 16:11

But why do so many people think a woman who enjoys burlesque must be stupid?
No one said that.

Why do you assume they think burlesque is the most empowering thing they do?
No one said that.

Why aren't they allowed to enjoy it as part of their lives?
No one said that.

ShebaShimmyShake · 04/12/2016 16:22

Clearly a lot of people have a huge problem with it,sneering at it all the way through this thread. A poster explicitly said that burlesque performers find it the most empowering thing they do (and if they do, so what?) and another ranted about postgraduate study as if the two are mutually exclusive. I'm on a crap device so I can't c&p but read the thread and yes, this is exactly what people are saying and what they have a problem with.

Burlesque is almost exclusively performed by and for heterosexual women, with the fun niche of boylesque thrown in. It's a way for women to explore and play with their sexuality in a fun, non judgmental, safe and supportive environment. Yes, even women who don't get much chance to explore that side of themselves because they're the wrong size or age. It's like an Ann Summers party in that regard. Possibly naff but not exploitative. That's what makes it different to stripping for men for money, which, of course, doesn't generate anywhere near this much anger. Part of the appeal is all the paraphernalia....pretty costumes, feather fans, opera gloves. That stuff is for women,men don't care.

If you don't like it (I don't) then don't do it.

GazingAtStars · 04/12/2016 16:24

"Twirling round a pole" is incredibly difficult, demanding on your body and takes strength and courage. It's something you have to dedicate a lot of time and effort to be halfway good at. That's pretty empowering I would say

user1480182169 · 04/12/2016 16:28

Burlesque is almost exclusively performed by and for heterosexual women, with the fun niche of boylesque thrown in. It's a way for women to explore and play with their sexuality in a fun, non judgmental, safe and supportive environment

Really? Britains got Talent is a safe and supportive environment only for hetero women, is it?
It's still just stripping, whatever you want to pretend about the audiences.

letsghostdance · 04/12/2016 16:39

user1480182169 Just dismissing something without any argument whatsoever doesn't go a long way to prove your point.

And to whatever someone said to me up there about how women can never judge other's choices, well I think that doing burlesque is something that isn't causing anyone any harm and so it's pointless to spend time passing judgement over people you don't know doing something that you don't ever spend any time thinking about unless you're being outraged.

user1480182169 · 04/12/2016 16:43

I don't need to prove my point, its my opinion.

There are plenty of arguments out there if you want to look for them.

well I think that doing burlesque is something that isn't causing anyone any harm

Still not getting it, are you? Firstly, you don't know its not causing harm (legitimising stripping for middle class white women while demonising sex workers and strippers is harm), its not about what individuals DO. Its about the narrative they are trying to create in the public sphere.

Not everything is about your individual choices. It's not all about YOU.

Namechangeemergency · 04/12/2016 16:43

"Twirling round a pole" is incredibly difficult, demanding on your body and takes strength and courage. It's something you have to dedicate a lot of time and effort to be halfway good at. That's pretty empowering I would say

Working in an environment dominated by men, being leered at and felt up by men, men thinking they own you because they pay you to twirl round that pole.
Thats empowering is it?

I remember seeing the looks of stunned shock on the faces of two young women who were sure they could make it as pole dancers. It was empowering, it was THEM in control, they enjoyed the idea of men lusting after them...they said.

Then they did an actual shift in an actual bar and realised it was dirty, nasty and degrading.

The men they thought would be drooling after their unattainable beauty? Whaddya know...turns out they stick a tenner in your knickers for a look at your tits they tend to think you are a skank and threat you like a piece of meat.

When will women stop believing the lies perpetuated by the sex industry?

You want to feel empowered by your powerful, strong and flexible body? Why not exercise, why do you need to do it semi naked infront of men? Is it only empowering if a man tells you it is?

pklme · 04/12/2016 16:48

Isn't it about body confidence, and celebrating all kinds of bodies not just the model like ones? Why is it ok for the stunning girls on Strictly to grind about in skimpy clothes, but not ok for people with less conventionally attractive bodies? I would say Ann Widdicome and Ed Balls came pretty close to burlesque with their performances.

There is a wit to burlesque, which somehow makes it so much more than objectification. Burlesque dancers are using their bodies as tools, just as athletes, comedians and actors do.