To think burlesque IS empowering?

[Neverknowing]

Following on from the 'burlesque' thread, I want to ask peoples opinion on burlesque I think if a woman is getting paid to do something they enjoy and they feel empowered by it then there's nothing wrong? I have a friend who did burlesque for years and said men and women who went to the shows were always respectful and she loved doing it!
Does anyone have any reasons they think burlesque isn't empowering?

I think people do feel empowered when other peiple notice their bodies and their sexiness. I think some people would feel empowered if they had captivated an audience who were fantasising about them.
So in that sense yanbu.

In terms of futhering womens right it is not hugely empowering but not hugely detrimental.

I think of Dita Von Teese and she is amazing!

I would also argue that sexuality is VERY empowering. That is not sexist...

That Fat Bottom Girls video upthread was one of the least empowered things I've ever seen. They are all confident on the surface, but there are little tells throughout - they keep pulling their 'skirts' down over their arses, for a start.

It reminded me of the scene in Wolf of Wall Street where the woman gets her head shaved and clearly hates it under the bravado. I had to turn that off, and this makes me feel similar.

Maybe the Dita Von Teeses of the world can find some empowerment in burlesque as an 'art form' - but the problem with that is it sells what is essentially stripping as something worthwhile and powerful.

Which then leads to three ordinary women dancing off-beat and out of time in their pants (or not) front of an ironically-cheering mob, who can go home and tell themselves they've supported female empowerment. When actually they've just paid to watch three women remove their clothes and dance badly on a stage.

Not for me. If we want female empowerment, let's start with wage equality and work our way up, shall we?

Right on spidery senses by showing solidarity

Oh ok

Nothing to do with seeing a show that is highly amusing with some great performers and dancers that to some is sensual and enjoying the glamour and humour of it all

If I go again I must remember to wear my sister's solitary tshirt

I've only read about 2/3 of the way through this thread, but the main message I'm getting so far is that sex is something done to women, by men, and that women should never be seen as trying to be sexy because that just gives the men what they want.
Who knew that feminism and religious fundamentalism had so much in common.

Ninja
Not that women shouldn't - just that it isn't empowering. Something can be great fun, without being empowering.
Besides, with burlesque, what sort of power lies within being young enough and attractive enough that men want to fuck you? That's not power at all, it's being an object of desire - key word here being object. As well as the fact that any power one gets from men wanting to fuck one is transient and quick to fade as one ages, and loses one's looks and novelty.
Although really, I honestly (honestly!) have no clue what's so empowering about making a man want to stick his dick in you I've worked not in burlesque, but in the sex industry in general, and believe me there is nothing particularly difficult or empowering about making a man (want to) do that if one is reasonably young and attractive.

What Missi said.

I find the burlesque argument to be quite an interesting commentary on class as well. Suggesting, as some arguments have done on here, that as long as it's traditional and well choreographed and humorous and has lovely costumes etc., etc., etc., then it's fine - because it's 'Art'. Likewise the comments about the 'Pole Community'. All great as long as it's being done to prove athleticism, fitness, or to 'empower' women and improve their sexual confidence. No mention at all of the women who are working and stripping for a living to put food on the table, or because they aren't qualified for anything else, or because they're funding a drug habit.

So, pole dancing and stripping are OK as long as you are doing it for artistic or confidence building reasons, because that makes you completely different and somehow better than someone who is doing it because they have to. Got it.

Ninja - there are more ways to be seen as sexy than by removing your clothing in public.

In fact, any man who found that sexy wouldn't be getting anywhere near me.

Missi There's a huge difference between doing something because you have to and doing something because you want to. That thing doesn't even have to be sex for this to be true.
I've known women who did burlesque, for fun, for themselves, and I've known women who worked in strip clubs because it paid the bills, and I wouldn't even categorize them as the same thing. That's just a tiny bit like saying that a woman shouldn't choose to have sex with a man for fun, because some women are raped. (Although, come to think of it, I've known a couple of people who believed that as well.)

"there are more ways to be seen as sexy than by removing your clothing in public."
I agree, but that doesn't mean that some people can't choose to do it because they do find it sexy. Some of them might even also think other things are sexy.

I just have difficulty believing that there is a "right" way or a "wrong" way for a person to express their own sexuality. As long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses everybody involved has a choice in the matter, of course.

Maybe there's a cultural disconnect with my understanding of this thread (beyond the general culturally-Christian distaste for unnecessary sexuality in women, which I've never been able to get a grip on) though, maybe the burlesque I'm familiar with on the US west coast is very different from the burlesque in the UK. Certainly there are cultural differences in what 'normal' behaviour and attitudes to and from women are expected to be, I've noticed it before, so maybe it's that.

Some friends asked me to go to a Burlesque lesson/cocktails last year. It was oh so cheeky and risque apparently. Hmmmm....seems about as edgy as a Michael Mcyntyre gig.
I declined. I find the idea of a hen do style group doing this as cheesey and boring.
Plus, can't get Tony Soprano's pole dancers out my head. Can't differentiate between pole/lap/burlesque/stripper. Who actually enjoys parading around like that? But if you do, then that's your call.
Me, 'm embarrassed to think about it. I find the idea tacky.
Friend mentioned one of the mothers a school does it and now I can't look at her without imagining tassels and cellulite.
FFS what's wrong with Keep Fit????

Ninja
I never said they were the same, or that burlesque couldn't be fun.
I said there is nothing in being able to make people view oneself as an object of desire, which provides one with power.
Amateur burlesque is about as empowering as amateur ballroom dancing, and arguably less so. And professional burlesque is no more empowering than ny other job, and once more, arguably less so.
It may be fun, but it is not "empowering."

'I've only read about 2/3 of the way through this thread, but the main message I'm getting so far is that sex is something done to women, by men, and that women should never be seen as trying to be sexy because that just gives the men what they want.'

People don't actually have sex in Burlesque shows.

There seems to be a massive conflation of sex, sexuality and being sexy. This only seems to happen with women.

Well, yeah...

At the moment we don't get many men performing sexy and/or stripping in front of heterosexual men and telling everyone: "ooh, it's ever so empowering".

Yes, that's what I was searching for.

The default for women's sexuality is that it is a sexy performance.

As if women's primary sexuality is exhibitionism.

Men are not expected to put on a sexy performance as their primary sexuality. Their primary sexuality is generally seen as engaging in sexual acts that directly lead to them having an orgasm.

I just have difficulty believing that there is a "right" way or a "wrong" way for a person to express their own sexuality

Do people really not understand what sexuality is?
Your sexuality isn't affected by whether you do or do not "perform sexily"

Not many straight blokes performing at present.

Well put, almond.