To think burlesque IS empowering?

[Neverknowing]

Following on from the 'burlesque' thread, I want to ask peoples opinion on burlesque I think if a woman is getting paid to do something they enjoy and they feel empowered by it then there's nothing wrong? I have a friend who did burlesque for years and said men and women who went to the shows were always respectful and she loved doing it!
Does anyone have any reasons they think burlesque isn't empowering?

None of the burlesque performers I know are harmed by it. They do it because they love it and they get paid for it. And I don't demonize sex workers or strippers because that would be a really shitty, misogynistic thing to do.

user Oh, I understand perfectly what I'm talking about so I don't need you to imply that you're questioning my intelligence.

I think that the demonisation of sex workers is awful. These women should be supported in every way that we can. But burlesque dancing is not sex work so those things can't be compared.

At no point did I say anything was about me, as a person who has never and will never perform burlesque. But as I said, I go to a lot of burlesque shows in lgbt+ spaces and they're always very positive environments. So if you've never been to a show then I would say that yes, I have more of an understanding. I feel like these aren't the kind of shows you're thinking of when you're imagining burlesque though.

pklme That's so true about the wit involved in burlesque.

No one should demonize sex workers or strippers.

Nor should we pretend that is 'empowerment'.

Lets look at the number of times men call their hobbies, their exercise or even their jobs 'empowering'. (Never)

Working in an environment dominated by men, being leered at and felt up by men, men thinking they own you because they pay you to twirl round that pole.
Thats empowering is it?

I didn't say anything about the audience. I'm saying that there's more to pole dancing than just being sexy for an audience of men - same with burlesque I suppose. There are lots of reasons why people pole dance - most of them for fitness, not because they want men to look at them.

Gazing its disingenuous to ignore the fact that pole dancing is for men.

It wasn't developed as an exercise and then someone though 'hey this could make money if we did it naked in nightclubs'

There is no doubt that it takes a great deal of skill and strength but that is hardly the point of it.

It's just middle class stripping.

If individual people doing it feel more confident or "empowered", whatever that means, fine. But let's not pretend it is a political or feminist statement. It's still just arranging your body into a series of poses to show fuckability, even if, gasp, you are a bit plump.

There might be a few gay men burlesque dancers but I don't see hides of straight men rushing to burlesque classes to learn how to bolster their self esteem by waggling their bottoms in sequinned shorts while peeping over an old umbrella.

Regarding burlesque, stripping and pole dancing. Do those who think it's empowering think women who don't are stupid?

What has the above got to do with prostitution (some women prefer to call themselves prostitutes) and sex work?

Yeah. I fancy taking my teenage daughters out to a pole dancing club. Because. Empowerment.

Do you think Burlesque is a good hobby for my 8 year old to get into?

She does cross-country, art, netball and beavers(!) but no one considers these particularly empowering.

It is what it is, stripping with more prep and effort.
Getting a maths degree or running your own businesss is empowering.
It is also hardly a long term option either. You would have to retire at the first sign of gammy knees or varicose veins.

I find burlesque quite interesting, there was a programme about it years ago and one of the dancers had a comedic 1920s flapper routine. I think some burlesque performers are very good, but I wouldnt call it empowering.
It's basically elaborate stripping.

But as I said, I go to a lot of burlesque shows in lgbt+ spaces and they're always very positive environment

And you fail to understand that your personal experience is not representative of burlesque as a whole.
You have experience of on e very small aspect of it, you ignore the rest. So no, you don't get it at all.

user but you aren't acknowledging those experiences at all? Youre just writing them off completely.

I haven't managed to discern any wit in the burlesque dancing I've seen.

Have you discerned any tits, Flora?

The "should my child do it" argument is disingenuous. I think The Shining is a great film but I wouldn't let an eight year old watch it. Plenty of things that aren't suitable for children are fine for adults.

I'm also totally depressed, but completely unsurprised, at the number of people who assume pole dancing is predominantly for men and have no idea of the gymnastic skill it requires,nor the fact that the pole community is about the dance, not the boners. They've been working so hard for years to get it respected as the demanding gymnastic art form that it is. If even women refuse to accept that, we are fucked.

Elendon, I haven't the foggiest idea where you got the notion that anyone thinks those who are not into burlesque or pole are stupid. I've seen plenty of people implying that a woman can't be sexual without being thick or underachieving, but nobody has even hinted that anyone who doesn't like burlesque is dumb.

Context is everything. It's why tits on Page 3 aren't the same as the three second boob shot in The Godfather, when Corleone goes in to meet his beloved bride on his wedding night. It's why classical nudes aren't generally likened to trashy internet porn (you could arguably compare them, but most people don't). And it's why showing your vagina to men for money isn't the same as playing with your sexuality in a safe, judgement-free space that's almost exclusively full of straight women and has less than fuck all to do with what men think.

Regarding burlesque itself, I do agree with previous posters who say it's generally shit not done very well. But that's the price of inclusivity. The community itself is not focused so much on high quality dance (professionals aside) as support and just general fun. So if that's what you like and want, go for it. And if it's not, do something else. It's your choice and every other woman's choice.

I'm also totally depressed, but completely unsurprised, at the number of people who assume pole dancing is predominantly for men and have no idea of the gymnastic skill it requires,nor the fact that the pole community is about the dance, not the boners. They've been working so hard for years to get it respected as the demanding gymnastic art form that it is

Oh pur-fucking-leaze. There might be a few people who do it as a dance/sport, but the majority of pole dancers are doing it in strip clubs. They are prostituting themselves.

STOP denying the reality of the majority in favour of your white middle class priviliged rip off of it. It's sickening.

Jesus, empowerment. Who is more empowered: Angela Merkel, Theresa May or the woman with no clothes on? Mmm though one.

Tough one, even.

No. The majority of pole dancers do it because they love it and consider it a gymnastic art, which it is. I am a semi professional dancer myself (not pole or burlesque) with many contacts and friends in the pole community, and they would be depressed but unsurprised at your ignorance. They do not do it for men, thank you very much, and your ignorance is an insult to their dedicated training.

Many of them also do aerial hoop and aerial silks. Do you object to those?

No. The majority of pole dancers do it because they love it and consider it a gymnastic art, which it is

Yes, thats always why women take jobs in strip clubs, for the ART.

Don't be so clueless. You are insulting a lot of women.

I suppose one problem for women trying to achieve equality with men is the lack of progress we have made for sexual equality. A large focus and rightly so, i would argue that the demand for equal rights has focused on reproductive rights but what about the rights of women to be treated as sexual beings?

Where we have failed is allowing the sex industry to appropriate female sexuality and the role women should play as sexual beings. You have to be young, slim, nubile and up for anything to be considered sexy. But, what about those of us who are some or none of these things.

If you are a women and you want to express your sexuality or sensuality where is the outlet for that. Virtually all areas of the sex industry has been contaminated by the idea that women are there to please men and get pleasure from pleasing men. Where is the outlet for women? Burlesque may be it for some.

You are missing the point, which is that most pole dancers are not in strip clubs at all, and they get angry when you assume that's why they train for hours every week.

I was at a show just last week with pole, silk and aerial hoop dancers and it was beautiful.

Equality is not found by trying to convince ourselves that stripping is suddenly not about selling ourselves to men but somehow empowering for women.

What a con job they've pulled on you, they get you to take your kit off AND be proud of it. You're conforming to every male defined concept of female beauty and sexuality and you think its subversive somehow.

How naive can you be?