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Original poster

To think burlesque IS empowering?

317 replies

Neverknowing · 04/12/2016 10:14

Following on from the 'burlesque' thread, I want to ask peoples opinion on burlesque I think if a woman is getting paid to do something they enjoy and they feel empowered by it then there's nothing wrong? I have a friend who did burlesque for years and said men and women who went to the shows were always respectful and she loved doing it!
Does anyone have any reasons they think burlesque isn't empowering?

OP posts:
almondpudding · 05/12/2016 10:43

It is possible for stripping to be done alongside something else that is an art form.

So yes, you could be an amazing poet and showing your arse while dressed as a peacock, but it would be the poetry that was the art.

Stripping itself is not an art form, and Burlesque is stripping.

user1480182169 · 05/12/2016 10:45

they have been many great dancers that have also done stripping, it is seen as an art form but that doesn't mean all stripping is an art form

It does mean that all stripping is stripping . Why are burlesque dancers so determined to distance themselves from strippers?

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 05/12/2016 10:56

you will have to ask them why

I never said all stripping isn't stripping I said not all stripping will be seen as an art form

striptease can be whole performance for an audience that would incorporate all different kinds of costumes with a perfected dance routine by a highly trained dancer the end result of her being nude is just part of the whole act, the anticipation, the teasing, the dancing itself is all part of the performance

user1480182169 · 05/12/2016 11:05

So what? That doesn't change anything. A longer routine doesn't elevate it to art form.

What they generally mean is "I'm not a skanky stripper, I'm doing art".
Whatever you need to tell yourself Hmm

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 05/12/2016 11:09

and what is someone is reading poetry showing their arse and is a highly trained and talented dancer who is able to make the whole performance sexual, amusing and exciting to watch is that not an art form

or do we have to separate anything that is sexually evocative to watch from performance for it to be considered real performance

user1480182169 · 05/12/2016 11:11

or do we have to separate anything that is sexually evocative to watch from performance for it to be considered real performance

The very opposite. We have to stop pretending its not sexual when it clearly is. Its the "I'm not stripping in a sexual way, I don't care about men looking at me, I'm just doing art for myself" bullshit.
Of course its sexual. Own it.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 05/12/2016 11:11

I would never call anyone a skanky stripper Hmm

almondpudding · 05/12/2016 11:16

That example might be an art form, but Burlesque isn't an art form.

almondpudding · 05/12/2016 11:19

And I've tried to be fair by looking at videos of Burlesque competition winners, so presumably the best, and it is just women taking their clothes off in a cheesy way.

There isn't any great poetry or amazing dancing.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 05/12/2016 11:20

I am not sure who you are talking about

Burlesque is not sexual where do you get that from - it is but it is not only sexual

and I really can not see why a highly trained dancer and talented performer who has perfected a striptease routine can not be seen as an art form is nudity so awful, is being sexually evocative so awful it is possible to enjoy the performance not just the bit where you see her in the nude

FloraFox · 05/12/2016 11:24

Is burlesque this type of empowerment?

To think burlesque IS empowering?
almondpudding · 05/12/2016 11:41

The end nudity is the least awkward part of a strip tease, TBH.

JeepersMcoy · 05/12/2016 11:44

So what if it is an art form. What is and isn't art is a whole argument in itself. The fact that you call it art doesn't make it empowering and certainly doesn't stop it from objectifying women.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 05/12/2016 11:51

I never said it was empowering

It is not up to me to decide if other women feel empowered by performing

BettySwollocksandaCrustyRack · 05/12/2016 12:23

Pole fitness is an amazing sport, the pole community is completely awesome and the sport itself requires a lot of strength and confidence, both totally gained from doing pole. There is a difference between pole dancing and pole fitness, personally I see nothing wrong with either although I only ever poled for fitness purposes in a proper studio.

However, I have been on MN long enough to know it's a pointless arguement. People are blinkered sadly, shame as it's such a lovely sport with amazing people ...men and women.....in it.

PaulDacresConscience · 05/12/2016 18:46

And do you include strippers who work on a pole in a club as part of your 'community' Betty?

CautionHotSurface · 05/12/2016 18:49

Harold Zidler was pretty sexy!

To think burlesque IS empowering?
TinselTwins · 06/12/2016 19:19

Why do straight women want to go and watch another woman strip?
Genuine question.

Well for me it's because ONE person in my circle choses it for her birthday/hen etc outings.

If any of the reast of us are chosing a night out, we go somewhere else.

Friend has many redeming qualities, her "love of all things retro" isn't one of them.

Same as how a lot of men go to strip clubs during stag dos but only a handful of them actuall enjoy frequenting stip clubs.

I actually think there's a fair bit of pressure to be "cool" with burlesque when it comes to group things, nobody wants to be the "prude" who says they don't enjoy it.

The worst burlesque performance I attended was at a black tie event.. somebody on the committe wanted it to be "memorable". It was - it was memorably depressing and awkward..

TinselTwins · 06/12/2016 19:25

I have NE-VER been to a burlesque perfomance where the audience was exclusively straight women though

I've been to one that was mostly a male audience and was very seedy. I've been to one that was mostly a gay crowd. I've been to one that was mostly hen does and was all a bit of a jokey freak show. It's not all straight women chosing to be empowered by watching another women twirling her nipple tassels

BTW. Women, straight or gay, can perpetrate misogyny. An all female audience (not that I've ever seen one) doesn't mean that the motivations aren't rooted in mysogony

Gowgirl · 06/12/2016 19:59

First off I have not read the entire thread just a few shitty remarks and the op.
Surely the moulin rouge is the home of burlesque, having been none of the women are over a size ten, they are also hopelessly athletic and look stunning, the fact they have their boobs out is lost in the art, you really wouldn't notice. I went with my mum and it was a fantastic Experiance.
On the other hand I would feel pretty stupid and not at all sexy trying to recreate (badly) such routines.why is it so normal for women to attack other women's choices one couples sexy is someone else's get the fuck away from me!

PaulDacresConscience · 06/12/2016 20:30

why is it so normal for women to attack other women's choices

Don't be so defensive. You are mistaking a debate for an argument. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are 'attacking' something.

You've also missed the point of the thread, which is that the OP has invited questions regarding burlesque being an empowering activity for women. I don't agree that it is, because I feel that it's just stripping. Yes it's dressed up with nice costumes and a bit of tradition and history, but it's still stripping your clothes off for cash. The 'confidence' element of it comes from obtaining strangers' validation of your physical appearance - which is nicely supported by your comments about 'size ten', 'athletic' and 'stunning'. It's nothing more than a risque beauty contest where people - usually women - are contorting themselves and shaking and jiggling to make themselves look sexually alluring for money and praise. What the hell is empowering about that?

Boundaries · 06/12/2016 20:46

the fact they have their boobs out is lost in the art, you really wouldn't notice.

Jees. No. The fact they have their boobs out IS the point. It's the climax of the "act"

On no planet is this empowering. It is the commodification of women's bodies and to dress it up as anything else is bullshit.

If you like burlesque fine. Just don't try and pretend it's anything other than what it is.

almondpudding · 06/12/2016 23:59

Thanks for answering Tinsel Twins. I can well imagine people getting dragged along to these things.

I'm wondering about the women who choose to go because they enjoy it. A poster earlier was saying it was almost all straight women, as if that were positive. I was wondering what the motivation is.

I understand that some straight men like strip clubs because they find looking at women taking their clothes off makes them feel sexy, because they are sexually attracted to women (and presumably voyeuristic)

But that cannot be the reason for straight women. They're not sexually attracted to women, so why watch a woman do a strip tease? What are they getting out of it?

ItsALLAboutMeMeMeMeME · 07/12/2016 02:47

They're getting a nice, warm glow of supportive sanctimony from their right-on spidey senses because they're showing how open-minded and full of shit solidarity they are. See, pretending that calling it performance art instead of stripping makes it not stripping is almost as empowering for them, in that they think it makes them look all cool and alternative to others, as the actual stripping is for the stripper burlesque performer.

BratFarrarsPony · 07/12/2016 05:45

"But that cannot be the reason for straight women. They're not sexually attracted to women, so why watch a woman do a strip tease? What are they getting out of it?

oh I dont know, it might appeal to their inner lesbian, Nobody is 100 per cent straight or gay, IMO.

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