AIBU to think no one has come out of this looking great?

[ilostdoryintheocean]

Really need help. DS is 11, and has been excluded for swearing at a member of staff. I don't condone his actions AT ALL - but I have been concerned about this TA for a while and I feel awful as I feel I should have spoken up for him earlier.

So here is the situation, DS has had a lot of early childhood trauma and he shows many autistic traits but has not been formally diagnosed. He colours in as a way of calming himself down but knows he needs to stop colouring and start work when the teacher has finished talking. Sometimes he refuses. The teacher then sends him outside to calm down (it's pointless confronting him.) The teacher has been really good with him.

The TA hates his colouring and shouts at him to stop. He then shouts back. It then turns into a shouting match. On Friday he told her to fuck off and that her breath stank. she is understandably furious but AIBU to wish she'd just back off him a bit, she really does seem to have it in for him a bit?

OP - I'm sorry that you are getting a hard time on this thread. It does sound however that you could use this as a springboard to getting a formal diagnosis and better support.

For what it's worth, I do really sympathise. One of my DS's has a formal SEN plan which states that he can use a fiddle toy and needs accommodations to help his focus. One of his teachers hates this, confiscates it, tells him off for daydreaming, marks him down for effort and behaviour. It takes an enormous amount of unpicking to prevent this spiralling into big anxiety, school avoidance and regression in his work. Before we had a formal Ed Pysch report, we had big problems, but even with the confirmed SEN plan, this one teacher persists in perceiving his issues as something that can be sorted out with a good telling off.

My advice would be to pursue a formal diagnosis so you can get his accommodations written in stone. Yes, abusing a TA is unacceptable, but your DS needs support to make sure he has alternative strategies for dealing with behaviour like the TA's.

In my DD's faith school, abuse of a member of staff would mean permenant exclusion.

Then your DD's faith school would be acting illegally. There are strict rules around the use of exclusion and no maintained school should operate blanket policies of that type, particularly in relation to children with the type of history that OP's son has.

Answer the questio OP.

I'm sorry, but no-one has the right to make rude demands like that, petitpois.

And you obviously hate the TA Op., for having the termedity to stand up to your sons name calling, and aggression.

Very offensive thing to say. OP has simply relayed what both the teacher and head say the TA did. And shouting at a distressed child to stop doing what calms him down isn't "standing up to" anything.

OP, the only mistake you've made is to post this in AIBU, where people love to pile in attacking the OP.

I would make an appointment to meet the head and the SENCO and possibly class teacher to discuss how this kind of scenario can be avoided in future.

AIBU is not a good place for this. You're getting a lot of flak from people who don't get it. Try Special Needs, SN Children or SN Chat, there are mums there who have been there and done that (and are still there and still doing that!)

A couple of people (like lulu) have made good suggestions about how to deal with the school. It's that much harder if you don't have a diagnosis and appointments for assessment are hard to get. So I would also try to use this exclusion as a starting point to go to the GP and say what's happened, or if he's already on a waiting list ring them up and nag about it.

It is possible to respectfully enforce rules, without labeling and 'formal diagnosis'

No special treatment needed, actually, as all children would benefit from consistent consequences that do not involve shouting, getting in someone's face

WLF46, it really is nonsense to suggest that it is appropriate to treat children with a history of early childhood trauma who exhibit autistic traits as disruptive naughty children unless and until they get the magic diagnosis whereupon you start treating them completely differently. In OP's child's case, his early childhood history is a known fact. Teachers have a duty to treat each child as an individual, not lump them all in the category of "badly behaved" purely because they are still waiting for diagnosis.

Well, petit is partly correct in that I don't like the TA. But then, would you like someone who regularly shouted at your child?

Sorry for getting upset.

Getting a diagnosis isn't like rocking up someone and saying "please diagnose" and we've also been wary about it as it was possible it was early trauma rather than SEN and naively we thought we could love it out of him. Yes, misguided.

I feel like if I say anything my son will be accused of being a liar and I a fool.

TA is out of line I'd say. And an exclusion for a single episode of swearing, even directly at someone?

My DS is on a list for ASN assessment, will be another 5 months at least we've been told and it's been 6 so far. We have access to an educational psychologist though and her assessment was enough to kick the school into action. Our excellent principal teacher this year has instituted an 'emotion volcano' on his desk (a paper thing) where he can mark where he is. So useful to everyone in the classroom to see when things are starting to build up. She also says that a diagnosis or otherwise won't make any difference to them, they have to help him regardless.

Christ. what a spiteful thread this has turned into.

FWIW, ilostdory, I think that some of the snippier posters have taken your comment "I'll leave it there" to mean you're not going to do anything else about your DS's situation, instead of "I'll stop bothering with this thread because it's not doing any good".

I'm fascinated too to know where all these instant diagnoses come from! It can take years to get a diagnosis, and even then there are some things that are not well recognised, or can only be diagnosed in certain counties because other counties don't accept that particularly diagnosis (PDA being one of these - can't get a diagnosis for that AT ALL in Australia because it's not in the DSM V, so therefore "doesn't exist".)

Surely the teacher's word and explanation, matching the DS's relating of the event, should be enough for everyone to have accepted that the TA in question behaved in an intimidating fashion to someone who has suffered a lot of trauma at an early age? But apparently not! Apparently the teacher's word isn't good enough!

Amazing.

Ilostdory - I hope you get some resolution for your DS, it sounds all very stressful.

I should have said, he was 'naughty' and 'not normal' for 5 years until I went to my GP in tears and he stepped in and told the HT to get us that referral to Ed Pysch or else he'd go over her head and do it. He's 10.5 now, been like this since P1.

Wouldhave, yes, a child like this would be excluded from the school I teach in. Yes, excluding him would lose the fees the parents pay for him. However, having a child like that in our school would cause far more fee revenue to be lost because no parent would pay to have their child in a class with a child like the OP's.

Our school does comply with the equality act. We have children with autism, dyslexia and dyspraxia. All children are expected to follow the rules though. Our staff are not trained in dealing with children with extreme behaviour problems. Why should a teacher or TA come to their job and be abused by a bratty child?? We are humans too.
If someone is abusive in a doctor's surgery for example, they will be asked to leave. Why should schools be any different?? If you think that all schools must put up with children abusing their staff, then you're wrong.

OP, what sort of future do you actually want for your son? If you want him to have a bright future with choices and the ability to get a good job, you should start being a firmer parent. The minute he tells a boss to f off, he'll be out the door. Or, do you want him to spend his life getting sacked and in trouble with the police, making excuses all the while for his alleged and undiagnosed special need?? Then continue on how you are.

I do hope, harshbuttrue, that you are not suggesting that in your school the staff would have refused to make the obvious reasonable adjustment of allowing a child to use a known method of calming himself, and would have condoned someone shouting at the child when he is doing so? A child with autistic traits who is already stressed swearing at someone who is deliberately shouting at him to increase his stress is not exhibiting an "extreme behaviour problem". An extreme behavioural problem would be a complete meltdown involving prolonged violence and destructiveness.

And if you seriously think the effects of early childhood trauma and likely autism can be sorted out just by being firm, you really should not be working in a school.

I am disgusted at how vile some PPs have been!

I'm a senior teacher at an ASD school OP & we would not be excluding for this. I also feel the TA isn't "old school" but rather ill equipped to deal with students.

At his reintegration meeting ask for his Behaviour plan & ask the TA how she was following it.

He shouldn't have told her to fuck off. We all know that. However he was the CHILD in this situation. I've disciplined staff for shouting in a child's face.

Where's the SENCO's input into all of this?

If someone is abusive in a doctor's surgery for example, they will be asked to leave.

If a child/adult with LD or other special needs swore at a doctor they would not be barred from the surgery. Most people understand and are capable of empathising with people with additional needs.

If you want him to have a bright future with choices and the ability to get a good job, you should start being a firmer parent.

He's 11. He has no support for his trauma/potential ASD. You are being incredibly unfair.

If you judged me at 11 you'd have thought me a total horror. I just hadn't been diagnosed and supported.

Maybe this doesn't fit into your private school ethos, but it's life. Life is different for the non-privileged.

ilostdory we've also been wary about it as it was possible it was early trauma rather than SEN and naively we thought we could love it out of him.
If your child has memories of childhood trauma or abuse, and uses colouring as a soothing action and lashing out as a protective mechanism, then your love and nurturing will have gone a long way towards helping him form positive early relationships that will take him into adult life as a more emotionally stable person. You are finding ways to recognise and reduce his anxiety and I'm sure will keep finding ways to help him recognise and reduce his anger,too Hope you have luck with ? neuropsychologist referral

💐. Honestly, some threads are like a call to the hard of thinking...just ignore the rude & ridiculous posts.

I'm unimpressed that the Head seems to think the behaviour of the TA is acceptable. However, I'd arrange another meeting ASAP & tell the Head that YOU don't find the TA's attitude at all acceptable. The TEACHER is happy with DS using colouring to help him & deals with it just fine if he doesn't stop when he should. The TA isn't in a position to 'over rule' the TEACHER. The Head probably thinks they are being supportive giving a new teacher a so called experienced TA, but they aren't. They're undermining her, but I expect she doesn't feel able to challenge it.

If you don't get anywhere with the Head, I'd go to the Governors/LEA whoever is above the Head at your school.

The TA's attitude is NOT acceptable, not at all.

I get shouted at a lot in my job by people who may not have a diagnosis but have some additional needs. I don't shout back because I'm not a twat and I know it's my job and that people rarely mean to be nasty, they just can't express themselves differently. Even if they do mean to be rude, I still don't throw my hands in the air and expect people to make excuses for me about how difficult my job is and how hard it is. Tough tits for me.

I'm sorry, OP. Maybe these thread should be moved so you can get some decent advice and not criticism.

WLF If by "special" treatment, you mean reasonable adjustments under th law, you should say so without the patronising quotation marks.

I'm a bit shocked by some of these comments tbh.

I'm a teacher and tbh I can see this happening. Some tas are not skilled at dealing with challenging children.

Actually, for now, I don't think a diagnosis matters. Education is about making sure every child achieves and learns. Colouring is a non disruptive activity he can do while focusing. The teacher sounds like she's doing a good job. I've had tas that have been older or in the job longer who think they know better than me in these kind of situations and have done similar, stepping in a escalating a situation that didn't need to be. I've had to go to the head and ask that they are spoken to about their behaviour.

Do you have a plan written down with the senco and class teacher? This might be the way to go.

Personally I'd go to the head, state clearly that you think the teacher is great but that you don't think the way the ta is dealing with your ds is productive.

Those saying that swearing should lead to permanent exclusion im shocked at. No swearing at a teacher/adult is not acceptable but this child clearly has a background of trauma and likely Sen. I've been sworn at loads but kids with additional needs, be that a diagnosis or behavioural issues from trauma. It's rubbish, doesn't feel great but that's life tbh. They'd most definitely be out the class for the day but excluded, not in my school.

Exclusion for awearing sounds a bit much TBH

Teachers and associates staff should therefore have to just put up with being sworn at? How often are you told to fuck off in the course of your job?

I'm not getting at you and it is not my intention for this to sound harsh.

Your son was very rude and I'm not really sure an undiagnosed SEN makes that ok, maybe slightly more understandable but there needed to be consequences to his behaviour.

It is really very unkind to tell someone to fuck off and their breath stinks!

I think the punishment was fair and I don't see how you can argue with that?

As for the TA, her point of view (I imagine) is that your son should try and listen to the teacher, if it then gets a bit much by all means colour in but as soon as he has calmed down try again. It really is not helping the root problem to just say that it's ok for him to colour in without even trying.

At some point you, DS, teachers etc are going to have to work on him being able to pay attention or he is never going to get anywhere.

Add to it all that he hasn't even been diagnosed and may not have any underlying SEN. Maybe the TA having been in the school environment longer than the teacher has seen children like your DS before and has found firm directions has helped?

Either way I think you need to address this with the head, get a diagnosis (if there is one) and work on your son's behaviour.

Need there's many ways of dealing with unpleasant behaviour rather than exclusion. Exclusion for some SEN kids just adds to the feelings of "not worthy" and "unlovable" because they're excluded from their peers, routine etc. We use exclusion for risk management. Inclusion often works better than exclusion.

Also with certain students I work with i know if a particular member of staff goes within feet of them they'll be told to fuck off. Unsurprisingly they're the staff I also want to tell them to fuck off.

harsh I hope you aren't a teacher because your propensity to call children's behaviour 'bratty'; your complete lack of empathy of different coping mechanisms; your bullying attitude to the OP and tbh your lack of understanding of modern teaching methods are shocking. I would be appalled if I was paying fees to give you access to my DC.

OP imo this thread is horrible and unhelpful. The TA should not have breached the agreement in place for managing your DS' behaviour. Regardless of the TA's own opinion, they shouldn't have disregarded the teacher's instructions on how to support your DS.

I would have a meeting with the HT, class teacher and SENCO and try to establish how this happened; why the 'unofficial' care plan is dependent on the TA's whim and the steps they are putting in place to mitigate the chance of a recurrence.

I'm truly ashamed of some of the posts you have had to read on here