AIBU to think no one has come out of this looking great?

[ilostdoryintheocean]

Really need help. DS is 11, and has been excluded for swearing at a member of staff. I don't condone his actions AT ALL - but I have been concerned about this TA for a while and I feel awful as I feel I should have spoken up for him earlier.

So here is the situation, DS has had a lot of early childhood trauma and he shows many autistic traits but has not been formally diagnosed. He colours in as a way of calming himself down but knows he needs to stop colouring and start work when the teacher has finished talking. Sometimes he refuses. The teacher then sends him outside to calm down (it's pointless confronting him.) The teacher has been really good with him.

The TA hates his colouring and shouts at him to stop. He then shouts back. It then turns into a shouting match. On Friday he told her to fuck off and that her breath stank. she is understandably furious but AIBU to wish she'd just back off him a bit, she really does seem to have it in for him a bit?

Harshbuttrue - teacher here too, but one who thinks you're being more than a bit goady there. It's Saturday, so why not calm down and read the thread a bit more.

We would be having a meeting with the senco and op in my school and look at the next level of evidencing possible problems with an ed psych if you feel that there's something underlying this sense of frustration. TAs are people too (!)and sometimes relationships with children don't work. However, they also see more than the teacher too at times because they've got eyes on what's going on within the class. It might be worth having a very rational conversation about what your child is actually doing, rather than what they tell you is going on. Good luck with getting some calm help from the school.

You need to educate the school about the impact of early trauma. You don't say what kind, but anything that could have impact on your child's attachment and their feeling of safety in environments and within themselves will impact on their ability to learn, and educators need to work with this not against it to make learning possible. It also benefits the greater group in the class. There are visual aids for example that might help let him know it's time to stop colouring, prior warning so an egg timer or coloured cards used a couple of minutes apart could help to make it a non explosive situation.

I know it seems awful to think of a child swearing at a teacher, but for a child who is in a hypervigilant state of fear being shouted at in their face gives them the same fear response we'd have if shouted at on a dark night by a stranger, so of course they 'overreact'. I don't know your sons issues but maybe you could share them with some suggestions of methods to support, and please don't feel you just have to put up with this happening.

He has no diagnosis, and even if he had, it's unacceptable to abuse a member of staff.
I wish there was a zero tolerance policy on stuff like this.
In my DD's faith school, abuse of a member of staff would mean permenant exclusion.

Harsh

So in your private/public school there are no brats ?

Class bullshit .

Please contact the school, I had a child with ASD who never listened while I was explaining a task to the rest of the class, he used to just take the handout and start work and had often finished by the time the others were starting.

I'd then let him 'play' on the internet for the last 20 mins. There was a new TA one day who thought he should be not doing his work while I was talking and should work at the same pace as the others.

It was madness, we (student and I) had developed a way of working that suited us both and he was making progress.

And if anyone is thinking of extension activities - nope to him that was punishment for finishing early.

It is unacceptable to swear at teachers.

His lack of respect should be a major concern for you right now.

You seem to imply the TA deserved it?

Just wanted to express some solidarity, op. My adopted dds, 12 and 15, had a one day exclusion this week for telling a teacher to fuck off. New headteacher won't stand any nonsense and I don't have a problem with that. But i am in awe of the patience their teachers and TAs have for my dds - they are brilliant with them - and I'd definitely be raising my concerns about your son's TA with his school.

I was a Deputy Head n a secndary school until this year and we would definitely have excluded a child who did what your son did. It is abusive, offensive, disrespectful and humiliating to the member of staff. A detention is not an appropriate punishment and I am amazed anyone thinks it is.

However, I think this TA needs to be spoken to. If the school has accepted yoyr son colouring is a way of helping him concentrate and that the agreement is he stops at a certain point and the teacher is fine with that, the TA should be working with that. She should not be causing issues with her behaviour. An NQT could easily be intimidated by an established TA, I agree with you. I think you should speak to the Head or the SENCO.

I think Private/ grammer schools are not hampered like state schools, and can exclude pupils for unaccecable and antonsocial behaviour.

Lots if state schools are far too namby pamby with the minority of those who behave like this.

Consequently, the rest of the children suffer. It's one if the reasons our education system is fucked.

I don't think exclusion is too harsh for swearing AT a member of staff and making insulting comments. That's very different from a quick "oh shit" at dropping something

Does the TA think that the colouring is distracting your son from listening to the teacher? TBH that was my first thought, how does he know what to do if he's checked out while the teacher gives instructions? Obviously it's neither here nor there to me, but the TA needs to know, and the teacher should have explained this to all classroom staff.

You need to push for formal diagnosis before secondary, so that support can be put in place immediately rather than waiting for school to see his issues and him to kick off before they do something to help

The TA is the problem and I would hate for her to be in charge on my DS. Take it higher and ask for a replacement. No TA DS ever had would behave like that.

Back the TA up and take his playstation off him for a week. It isn't normal for a young child to be telling adults to f off.
It is quite normal and predictable actually for a special needs teenager. If a special needs child is cornered and directly confronted with a loud, angry tone of voice, he or she will very predictably yell abuse back.

If your son colours in to calm himself, then he was obviously feeling quite anxious at the time he was demanded to stop colouring in. Perhaps his anxiety was due to auditory processing difficulties? The distortion of noise SN students with auditory processing issues have to put up with in a busy classroom becomes quite irritating when they can't filter background noises like other students can.

What would your DS describe as "shouting", OP?

Because if it's what I would describe as shouting, rather than, say, talking in a firm voice, I would imagine the whole class, including the teacher would be able to confirm his version because everyone would have heard it.

He definitely needs an assessment and some understanding, but this is very serious. Staff aren't there to be abused. I would support an exclusion of a child said this to me.

OP, have you told your DS any point that it's unacceptable to abuse teachers and TA's?

If she was close enough he could smell her breath she was definitely shouting and intimidating in an unacceptable way.

I don't like swearing or disrespect, but from reading the OP what leaps out at me is a frightened and angry child who is doing everything he can to cope with the situation. Actually my heart breaks for him and I really hope the school get a handle on this OP. Best of luck sorting them and I hope they create a better environment for your boy's needs.

I mean Jesus, the lad was colouring in not beating up his classmates! I remember teachers like the ta you describe and at 34 I'm still angry at their behaviour. No staff are not there to be abused, but they are adults who are being paid to help the kids in their care. The boy in this scenario is a child. One who needs and deserves better than this.

monkeymamma: That is actually a quite horrible comment. Do you think it's impossible for a child to say "Your breath stinks" to someone whose breath doesn't stink? Do you think people don't stand within that sort of distance in normal conversation every day? It is an unacceptable thing to say to someone even if they do have smelly breath.

monkeymamma: He hasn't been excluded for colouring in. He has been excluded for abusive behaviour. He doesn't have a formal diagnosis of any special need and his behaviour was unacceptable. Yes, he needs support in terms of seeking an assessment (which could reveal a special need but obviously might not) and yes, he needs to be treated fairly and reasonable regardless of any special need, but it is unacceptable in any scenario for him to speak to a member of staff at his school like that.

I've been teaching for 7 years in a non-selective state school with an intake from very deprived areas with above average numbers of kids from deprived backgrounds. I have never in those 7 years been told to fuck off by a student, SEN or not, so I strongly disagree that it is normal behaviour. I'm not sure we'd go for a permanent exclusion, especially not for a child with the issues the OP described but it would likely be a 5-10 day fixed term exclusion. I think the punishment is fair but I also think it would be a good idea for the OP to speak to the school. Is there some sort of Behaviour Support Plan in place for him? Does he have targets to stick to and are appropriate strategies for managing his needs and behaviour shared with all the staff who teach him/support him. If this isn't the case then you need to raise this with the school. If there is no plan in place with shared strategies then the TA isn't really doing anything wrong by challenging him. I wouldn't allow colouring in in my lesson whilst I was speaking to a class as a matter of course, if it was a necessary coping strategy for a child with issues then I would expect the school's inclusion manager to have a plan for that child stating that. I think this is likely an issue with the whole school management of his issues rather than the fault of this individual TA. If there are strategies that work for your son they should be shared formally with all the staff who work with him. It would avoid a lot of trouble and headaches for your son and the staff.

Fwiw, at my dcs school, a child hitting another child will be met with isolation for a couple of hours. They would be excluded only they were hitting a teacher.

Swearing .... there is no way they would be excluded (it's secondary too where I would expect them to be much stricter)

So yes the punishment seems to be very hard.

PensionOutOfReach: The policy in your child's school sounds ridiculously lenient. No wonder they are hitting their teachers if they are allowed to get away with detention for speaking to them like this.

She definitely shouts and gets too close.

I don't think his behaviour acceptable at all which is why I've said, no one comes out of this looking good. At the same time I think she could have avoided the whole incident by managing him a bit better.

It is a fixed term exclusion by the way. Not permanent.

fussy my understanding is that there IS a plan I place, the teacher and the OP have agreed to let the child do some colouring etc...
so there is a an in place, even though I'm not sure it has been officially formalised.

I also gather that the issue with that particular TA isn't new as the OP is referring to 'should have done something to protect him before that incident' which tells me there is a backstory there with that particular TA (rather than the teacher or having a plan in place etc...)