AIBU to think no one has come out of this looking great?

[ilostdoryintheocean]

Really need help. DS is 11, and has been excluded for swearing at a member of staff. I don't condone his actions AT ALL - but I have been concerned about this TA for a while and I feel awful as I feel I should have spoken up for him earlier.

So here is the situation, DS has had a lot of early childhood trauma and he shows many autistic traits but has not been formally diagnosed. He colours in as a way of calming himself down but knows he needs to stop colouring and start work when the teacher has finished talking. Sometimes he refuses. The teacher then sends him outside to calm down (it's pointless confronting him.) The teacher has been really good with him.

The TA hates his colouring and shouts at him to stop. He then shouts back. It then turns into a shouting match. On Friday he told her to fuck off and that her breath stank. she is understandably furious but AIBU to wish she'd just back off him a bit, she really does seem to have it in for him a bit?

Whatever your DS's underlying problems may be, you have obviously been using sensible (loving) strategies to manage him and that isn't going to change. As he gets older it's more about getting other people to recognise his needs and to use the right management strategies as well. There might not be such a clear difference between some of the effects of early trauma and other SEN; they all need kindly appropriate management. And none of them benefit from a TA shouting at him and stopping him using his calming techniques, or generally making a stressful situation worse.

It sounds as if the class teacher has recognised and responded to your DS's needs. And I don't suppose she thinks the TA's behaviour was appropriate though she can't say that to you as a parent. So I don't see why anyone would accuse your DS of lying or see you as a fool. I would accept the exclusion (given that he doesn't have a diagnosis or a formal management plan) but take a "where do we go from here so it doesn't happen again" kind of approach. And "where we go" in future might reasonably include formal assessment of his needs and a management plan.

Some people here should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

At NO point has the OP said her ds behaviour was ok just that she feels it could have been avoided.

And I'd imagine can only if it happening again if a Ta responds the same way - again.

If you have a child who struggles to manage anxiety and communicate it you'd understand how and why they end up shouting a short sharp fuck off. Not all children can explain how they feel in depth and can't control how they say it.

My ds has also been in trouble for swearing and I've accepted schools disapline - however I also expect them to find ways to help ds manage and respond better.

He's only 11. He isn't an adult. Many adults swear when frustrated.

Hope the OP reads this:

I've been teaching for over 20 years, in state and private, UK and US. I currently teach in a school where some classes have 1/4 with a diagnosis. My DD is very much on the spectrum.

Not as knowledgeable about early trauma.

But yes, totally normal for a kid on the spectrum to act like this.

Raising a kid on the spectrum is a very different experience from raising a NT kid.

I would suggest that the OP continues to work with the school, and use this incident to ask for a meeting to formalize her son's accommodations. Also to ask for the school's support in requesting a diagnosis. These can take years, and it may be that her son grows out of this, or it may be that further issues arise.

But either way, going through the process should provide some answers and support. I would suggest asking for support to her a child with early trauma, as well as the suspected ASD.

At a meeting with the school I would request that the TA is made aware that personal space and a calm voice is essential. If she isn't able to do that, then she needs to work in a different room. Not much point in being a TA if she can't deal with children on the spectrum.

Foxysoxy, I'm not sure you've read the OP properly. She has made it clear more than once that she does not condone what her child did.

As for the TA, her point of view (I imagine) is that your son should try and listen to the teacher, if it then gets a bit much by all means colour in but as soon as he has calmed down try again. It really is not helping the root problem to just say that it's ok for him to colour in without even trying.

How on earth would shouting at him help him to try again? And how do you know he isn't listening to the teacher when he's colouring? For many children that sort of activity helps them to concentrate.

Maybe the TA having been in the school environment longer than the teacher has seen children like your DS before and has found firm directions has helped?

Clearly it didn't help in this case. If the TA had her eyes open, she would have observed that actually it is the teacher's calmer methods that work.

harshbuttrue1980: I think what you are saying is - sorry - harsh but true. An 11 year old only has a few short years before he is an adult and expected to cope in a workplace and in adult relationships. He won't be able to rely on saying he experienced childhood trauma or that he has autistic tendencies - if he tells his boss to fuck off and that he/she has smelly breath, he will be put out on his ear. Depending on how able he is to manage his issues, he could end up with a criminal record.

I work with lots of children with SN, some of whom can be aggressive but most of whom would never, even in moments of great stress, say something so offensive to an adult. I also work with children with SN who regularly behave aggressively with staff when they think they won't be sanctioned, but who manage their behaviour much better when the expectations of them are higher. As these students get bigger and older and their behaviour remains unchecked and their parents keep making excuses for intimidation of staff, they tend to take these behaviour issues home. By 15 they are unmanageable and their parents are asking for support with aggression towards them. It is very sad.

The OP in this case needs to acknowledge that her son is currently undiagnosed, so the TA is not doing anything wrong by treating him largely as she would any other child. She needs to enlist the support of the school in finding formal strategies to manage his behaviour. She needs to seek an urgent assessment of any special needs her son has. She needs to commit to supporting the school with any sanction for aggressive behaviour. She needs to not tell her DS it is all the fault of the adults working around him.

WouldHave
I did read the OP but may have taken something different from it than you did, as unbelievable as it is as I am always right maybe we have different points of view.

We only really have the OP's word for the TA shouting as I just cannot believe a brilliant teacher, as OP said she was, would allow the TA to shout at the child and undermine her sanctions. If the teacher really believed the TA had be shouting unreasonably at DS then she would have spoken to head and they would have not suspended him.

For teacher, head and TA to be in agreement to suspend him there must have been more to it than op's DS being a victim of a psycho TA (that had been in the job years and not been sacked yet)

I stand by my post that I don't believe DS being allowed to colour in and not try to participate is exasperating the situation.

And to be clear OP does not know her son has any SEN. I understand he has had a troubled early life but counselling and a firm but fair hand is what will work for that.

If the teacher really believed the TA had be shouting unreasonably at DS then she would have spoken to head and they would have not suspended him.

Not necessarily. My DS was also excluded for behaviour to a TA which the school acknowledged had been escalated by the TA's own actions. His TA also did something which (like speaking loudly right into a child's face) was well meant but a bit dodgy with any child and was a huge mistake with my DS. DS's school was generally excellent but nobody is perfect and mistakes happen. DS had a diagnosis etc and I could have challenged the exclusion but on balance I decided to let it go. Luckily the school got the de-escalation thing nailed and DS settled down.

A fixed exclusion can be a way to get some breathing space, calm things down and let everyone move on.

Kleinzeit: Sounds reasonable. Here, you acknowledge that the staff member could and should have acted differently without condoning the behaviour that then resulted in the exclusion. No-one objects to that.

And as your DS did have a diagnosis, you are in more of a position to argue that his behaviour is mitigated by his SN.

Harsh; child swears, ends up on wrong side of the law! Really!

OP speak to head, TA is escalating a volatile situation, what will her sanction be: I am guessing none. So they need to ease up on your son. Can I ask is he 11 at primary or 11 at secondary school.

Pursue diagnosis but be aware it can take time. Get all the ad ice and help from school and most of all outside sources.

On future best advice I'd speak up early before escalation. But I am sure you know that now so try and relax and just learn from this one.

Head needs to intervene and be on your son's side! She or he can do that without being against the TA or the teacher.

advice

TA is escalating a volatile situation, what will her sanction be: I am guessing none.

Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. There is no diagnosis and no status for these adjustments on any IEP. The TA may not have used great judgement but she has not done anything that warrants a disciplinary. And the school needs to deal with any abuse of staff, irrespective of any standard reason for it (excluding serious situations where the child has been attacked or abused by staff). Adults and children are in different positions in schools, so it is ridiculous to try to treat the TA as if she needs a 'sanction' for her 'behaviour'.

petitpois55: Give me an 'old school' behavioural system where my child can actually learn any day of the week. I would be furious if my child had to put up with being in a classroom where kids got away with this sort of behaviour.

Trifle Absolutely. That's why we chose a school for DD that wasn't the terrible local comp who seemed to be incubating future petty criminals

We only really have the OP's word for the TA shouting as I just cannot believe a brilliant teacher, as OP said she was, would allow the TA to shout at the child and undermine her sanctions.

For the purposes of this discussion we have to take OP's word for it, because it's pointless otherwise. You don't know that the teacher hasn't done something about this - she may well have spoken to the TA afterwards, reported her to senior management, arranged for her to have better training, etc.

Why do you assume that the teacher and TA would have had to agree with the exclusion, Foxy? That isn't how it works.

And to be clear OP does not know her son has any SEN. I understand he has had a troubled early life but counselling and a firm but fair hand is what will work for that.

OP knows her son has autistic traits. Whether or not he would be diagnosed as having autism, that still means he has difficulties which are likely to include problems with social communication and sensory difficulties. Those are problems of the sort that lead to major stress in class.

As for assuming that the effects of early childhood trauma can be dealt with as easily as you suggest - I'm sorry, but you really are demonstrating woeful ignorance of what you're talking about.

petitpois, Trifle, in all your self-satisfaction, does it occur to you that the other children would have had nothing to deal with if the TA had dealt with OP's son in the way the class teacher does?

I do hope for your children's or grandchildren's sakes that they never develop learning difficulties. They obviously can't expect support at home.

petit You seem to have comprehension problems. The OP clearly stated in her second sentence that she does not condone this actions. She expressed concern at the severity of the punishment. You, however, have not even tried to empathise with a child who has experienced trauma which is an additional need. You seem to have quite enjoyed picking at the OP which says an awful lot about you and not in a good way.

WouldHave: I'm not self-satisfied at all. This isn't anything for me to feel self-satisfied about. A child is struggling at school and may have undiagnosed SN, AND, in addition to this, he has poor boundaries. He needs BOTH support in investigating his needs and consequences for the chosen part of his behaviour.

The TA MAY need to reflect on her role in what happened. She certainly needs support from her school in clarifying an official line wrt this child's possible SN: whichever strategies she is expected to use should be the same in every teacher's classroom and should not involve specifying that she can't deal with poor behaviour.

Diagnosis or not I have come across a few children who cannot 'sit and listen' - some of this is due to sn, some undiagnosed sn and some just are just fidgeters,

My method for dealing with these kids is giving them blu tac to fiddle with while I'm talking, only they are allowed it and only if it isn't abused I.e. They listen to instructions and put it straight away when they have to get on with work - it works.
Here the bru tac seems to be colouring, it's a tried and tested measure that works.

I have also met old school tas that are snooty at these 'new' ideas and think were just being soft so I can well believe this situation happened exactly as the op said.

I think the original op is true - nobody has come off looking very good. I do agree with the exclusion punishment though, totally unacceptable to swear at a teacher no matter the circumstances. TA also needs speaking to by the head

petit what is your problem?! The OP's child was wrong. Nobody has condoned this. Are you the TA? You seem very overly invested and making solid statements when nobody really knows every part of this story. I am considering that there may be reasons for his behaviour. I'm not sure there are any reasons for yours though.

I haven't read the full thread, but OP, your words "I thought we could love it out of him" brought tears to my eyes. You sound like a loving parent doing the very best for your DS, keep going .

I think primarynoodle is spot on!