Partner on wards after birth - part 2!

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

Wanted to continue this discussion as someone asked about stats re impact of visitors on wards.

I doubt there's stats anywhere (can't find anything with a quick Google anyway) but ask yourselves, why are visiting times the NHS over generally kept to a few hours a day? Because it's disruptive for the ward and patients need rest, and it can be a huge infection prevention risk. This is no different for maternity.

Original Thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2790704-About-partners-on-the-ward-after-childbirth

Different wards would be better, different sections of the same ward seems fairly pointless to me as the partners would still be in the same space, just not right next to you. Both of these still have the issue of what to do if one or the other is full, and a woman can't be accommodated as she wishes.

I hope that all new-build hospitals have separate en suite rooms, as it seems at least some do.

different sections of the same ward seems fairly pointless to me

In other types of hospital wards having men and women in different sections (i.e. rooms or bays) on the same ward is still considered 'single sex accommodation' by the NHS. So I don't know why it's not good enough. (And separating by bay is much more flexible than whole wards).

So if a woman is in one bay and a man in the one adjoining it, that counts as single sex?

Sorry, not sure what you mean by adjoining it?

From my recent experience of this, I was in a six person bay (bay 8) with 5 other women. Along the corridor the next bay (bay 7) of six beds had men in. Obviously the bays are flexible rather than being permanently dedicated to a gender, so if you get more women you make more of the bays for women etc.

I was thinking a bay was a single "cubicle" but you mean a section containing several patients. Presumably there are no electronic double doors separating each section?

Haven't rtft but partners don't count as "visitors" and rightly so. Whilst visitors are and should be limited, this doesn't apply to partners / baby's father. When ours were born, I ended up staying in for a week each time due to complications and thankfully DH had 24h access each time. I'd have been quite shocked if he hadn't, tbh!

I stayed for a week each time with both of mine, and was glad that partners were not allowed to stay 24hrs. I'd have been quite shocked if they had.

Were you on a ward or in a private room itsawonderfulworld?

I don't see why the assumption is women who doesn't want to sleep with strange men v women with terrible birth injuries. Everyone on that ward is suffering from birth and some women in addition to that will have well founded issues regarding being around strange men at night.

If I was on a ward where a bay was full of men also recovering from major abdominal surgery I don't think I'd feel quite as threatened. Those men aren't in my direct space and presumably aren't well enough to constitute a threat if they feel as i do.

The only answer at the moment has to be a better choice. Because it is quite clear that some people need partners there and some feel that's unacceptable, either because of their own issues or because they are concerned that others will have issues.

For me personally, if DP had been told to leave when I went back onto the ward at 4am, my baby wouldn't have had colostrum in her first few hours of life and would not have been changed (well, not as frequently as the little wee and poo factory needed anyway!) or cuddled as she needed until he was allowed back in at 10. For that reason, if we ever have another, I will only go to a hospital where partners can stay. Because you can't rely on getting a private room at the moment. And frankly I think it's very easy to claim on the internet that you'd take the moral high ground, but I am very at people claiming that in practice in circumstances like that they would send their partners away happily and leave their baby in a cot and themselves in a state with no help.

This is definitely a tricky one as proved by the huge discussion (and daily fail article) it has given way to. To be honest I was glad to have my husband with me, even though he didn’t stay the night first night, I had a relatively straight forward experience, but can appreciate it would be very different having experienced complications, difficult labour etc.

However, having other people’s family and partners there was really unpleasant for me. I gave birth in a hospital in another european country, and knew that I could pay for a private room, but there were none available for the first two nights. First night, a shared single room which had been made into two with a curtain partition. I was in induced labour, while the couple next to us were both special needs and had a premature baby just released from NICU with them… plus granny and a few other family members at 8pm in the evening. My anxiety levels went through the roof being surrounded by so many strangers and being in pain but trying to be quiet in labour while the tiny tiny baby 2ft away from me went to sleep. Finally managed to rest with my husband on the bed with me, a nurse came in and woke us to say he couldn’t be on the bed.

Second night, after my daughter was born, again a shared single room with two beds in and a curtain. Man, woman, newborn baby and a toddler in the next “booth”, watching television on an ipad full volume until 12am when I complained to the nurse on duty. Rest of the night, new mum crying with BF pains and man telling her to shut up. Far from the relaxed bonding environment I wanted for my 3 hour old baby.

So in a nutshell, agree I would want my partner there and others should be allowed theirs. But think that this is only a problem because of “visitors” being inconsiderate to the needs to new mums and babies.

Problem is temporary if i was having a baby now and men were allowed in would i have my dh with me?

Fuck yes!!! Why am i the only one without a partner!!! Oh and what a bad husband and poor baby and mummy left alone there would be threads all over mumsnet

So now instead of 6 women in my ward we now have 12 people and the NHS thinks that women are happy with the situation, when some of us arent

Men should never have been allowed 24/7, the care given by the NHS should always have been better than sufficent

The genie is out of the bottle though...how do we stuff him back in?

For me personally, if DP had been told to leave when I went back onto the ward at 4am, my baby wouldn't have had colostrum in her first few hours of life and would not have been changed

But by your own logic, yes she would, right? Because what you're saying is that if hospitals allow 24/7 partner visiting, it frees up resources to care for women whose partners aren't there. So if you were one of those women, then you'd have had that care.

Unless you're saying that it should free up resources - but in practice it won't, because care will just be cut down to compensate and women without partners will be left without care. In which case - yes, and that's what I'm saying too! That's why we need a system that works for everybody.

Nobody wants to take resources and love and care away from your baby. But your baby is here, your birth has happened, your postnatal stay is over. You keep coming back to people wanting to change things about your birth, but that's not it. It's about wanting to change the future, not the past. How do we create a system that'll work for your next baby, and my next baby, and the baby of the scared single mum who just found out she's pregnant again? We can't just focus on what would have worked for us personally. We need to look at what would work, going forward, for all of us.

I can see both sides and I've recently argued vigorously for safe spaces for women (and got a shed load of misogynist abuse for it. ...this wasn't on mn btw ) so I totally get the argument that men and vulnerable women don't mix.
But I also think the current system of expecting new mothers to do everything for their babies while also recovering from birth is crazy. While you're both still in hospital you should both be considered as patients and receive care. ...not one give it out and never have a chance to rest. After ds was born, I was awake for 40 hours because he wouldn't settle and no one would help me. I cried on the second night and begged for my mum to be allowed to stay but there was no chance. I was so tired that I almost fell asleep standing up, holding my newborn. Is this a safe system? I couldn't feed because I was dehydrated and exhausted and again no one would help me. One LC told me to strip off to the waist and she'd come back and help. That was 8pm and I never saw her again. Eventually I put my clothes back on.

So the solution? More staffing I guess but that's highly unlikely with all these public sector cuts. How about allowing females only to be able to stay? So no husbands overnight but a mother, friend or sister. .. .Like they used to in the village.

What is absolutely clear from these posts is that maternity units are under extreme stress with regard to post natal care. That is shameful and should be a matter of urgent reform.

I do have to say though that expectations for outcomes and care seems to be higher in maternity units when it comes to what patients expect.

Childbirth and pregnancy is risky to women and children. The answer is not to paste over these facts by allowing partners in 24/7 as carers.

It's a bit PFB expecting to have a partner there to help with the baby - not east because after number one someone needs to stay with the other children anyway. How about instead we fund maternity services properly so that new mothers get good care on the post natal ward - radical idea, I know

53 that's right. Unfortunately there are women have terrible difficult births and have been sexually abused or assaulted by men and don't have partners to help. There needs to be a proper plan to ensure everyone is safe and feels safe. Different wards is an option, private rooms are options, sticking to set times for partners is an option. All options rely on more funding and more staffing. Relying on partners to do basic care in the current system is seriously disadvantaging every woman and child who do not have someone to help and potentially damaging the mental health of others who don't feel safe around men at night.

I'd really recommend a debrief for anyone who's had a traumatic birth, I found it very hard but helpful and it set me on the path to my current pregnancy.

Personally I would have hated being in a ward, having to put up with other people would be bad enough but having to put up with their visitors 24/7 too would have tipped me over the edge. Our local hospital has individual rooms on the labour ward and ante-natal ward. Only the HDU had a ward set-up with multiple bays and curtains. And I can't believe that there is a policy of curtains must be open for observation. No wonder breastfeeding rates are so low, who wants to get to grips with it in public view!

It's interesting reading this and contrasting it with the threads where the pregnant woman is asking is it acceptable to restrict visitors during the first few days when they get home. If they're on the type of wards that many of you are describing no wonder they're ready to put up the shutters and batten down the hatches against visitors by the time they get home. [shocked]

I'm actually appalled that such situations are considered the norm by so many. Of course there should be sufficient staff so that partners aren't needed to help. Surely anyone who needs to be kept in is being kept in for medical reasons and visiting hours should be restricted to allow them to recover. Post c-section I managed three hours of family visitors of an hour each with a break inbetween on day two and the visiting hours for the father were plenty. Second time round DH was barely there after the first day as he had DC1 to look after and he could only manage about an hour at the hospital before getting restless. First stay staff were fantastic, second most were great but a couple were awful and I should have reported them actually but wasn't up to it. A quick google tells me that partners can now stay overnight but to honest I really don't think in most cases it should be necessary and it shouldn't become the norm.

Just the idea of a debrief terrifies me, tbh. I'm missing a lot of my memory from DD's birth (midwife thought due to drugs?) and what I've got is so scattered and out of order and awful. I don't know if it would help or hurt to find out what actually happened. But hearing that it was helpful for you even if hard is reassuring. Do you know if there's a time limit on when you can ask for one? Maybe if there's ever a Baby #2, I'll look into it before that one's born.

I do think its too crowded and noisy to let everyone have their partner with them overnight. However, the reason I regard my hospital stay as so hellish is that I felt frightened and alone with this new baby that I really wasn't in a good state to care for by myself. If more help with your baby was on offer then fewer women would feel this way surely? Next time I will be discharging myself at the earliest possible moment.

I think ds was 3 when I had mine but I think they keep records for 18 years. I had gaps due to illness and meds too. It helped piece it together. I was still angry and upset but it doesn't sound like I was ever on the brink. I also got some good counselling after that I accessed through the supervisor of midwives and a promise I could have any birth I liked if I wanted another child. Hence a planned cs next month.

Thank you. I'll definitely look into it.

I think my local hospital have got it spot-on. The room that I delivered in was then mine for 24h post delivery, with a double bed and en suite so that my husband could stay over. I then required a three night stayon the postnatal ward, where visiting hours were strictly upheld. I suffer from anxiety and the prospect of staying on my own on the ward was terrifying. However, the staff on the ward were amazing and soattentive. Within minutes of pressing the buzzer, someone was there. Every time. And they sat with me patiently while I looked after my son because they could see I was not coping. They offered to take him for a few hours while I got some sleep, but I declined as I wanted to learn to do things for myself. In the daytimes he got plenty of 1on1 daddy time while I napped. By the time we left, I felt confident looking after him, had had a decent rest and my husband was well rested from a good night's sleep, knowing we were being well looked after by the staff.
I think as a group we need to channel our efforts so that postnatal care is standardised and improved, rather than patching the gap by allowing partners to stay. The ward that I was on was almost full, but well-staffed which I think this boils down to. Staffing ratios need revision, which costs money.

But I also think the current system of expecting new mothers to do everything for their babies while also recovering from birth is crazy. While you're both still in hospital you should both be considered as patients and receive care. ...not one give it out and never have a chance to rest. After ds was born, I was awake for 40 hours because he wouldn't settle and no one would help me

I don't understand this at all. Clearly 40 hours extends beyond more than one night, so if you weren't getting any support at all for 40 hours straight, you clearly had no one with you at all throughout your stay and no staff gave you any assistance whatsoever? I don't see how having a partner overnight would have helped you when you were getting no support even during normal visiting hours.

It's hard to sleep during normal visiting hours no matter how much support you've got, though. Wards are so chaotic and noisy. Another reason why I don't like the idea of 24/7 partners in shared rooms - it makes it even harder to get some proper rest.

The thing that would have improved my postnatal stay the most was a quieter ward, whether that was single rooms or reduced visiting or anything that let me actually get some sleep. Having my partner there the whole time wouldn't have helped with that, really. Couldn't sleep much at night because of constantly feeding baby/other babies crying, couldn't sleep in day because of so many people about. I was so tired I hallucinated people dancing outside at one point.

What I want to know is how do people manage that are having their second or later child??

Do the DPs that stay 24 hours a day for a few days in order to be with their newborns just leave their older kids with relatives the whole time??

Eventually will parents expect the older kids to be accommodated for "bonding" as well??