Partner on wards after birth - part 2!

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

Wanted to continue this discussion as someone asked about stats re impact of visitors on wards.

I doubt there's stats anywhere (can't find anything with a quick Google anyway) but ask yourselves, why are visiting times the NHS over generally kept to a few hours a day? Because it's disruptive for the ward and patients need rest, and it can be a huge infection prevention risk. This is no different for maternity.

Original Thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2790704-About-partners-on-the-ward-after-childbirth

Also there are those who give birth whose babies are taken almost straight away to NICU. They will have had an ELCS/or emergency CS and will never be able to establish feeding. Obviously these women should be in a side room. I can't imagine that happening and listening to babies crying, being breastfed, partners and relatives there, whilst your precious baby/babies are in a separate part of the hospital. They need care and support too, especially if the babies are in for weeks.

With a double bed and en suite so that my husband could stay over
To me it seems odd that you would be sharing a bed with your husband in hospital.

Elendon, my baby was taken straight to nicu, I had a side room for approximately 2 hours. I was then on the ward with all of the other mothers and their babies. I lucky, I only had to stay 10 days and after the first few days they made my bay the bay for those mummies with babies in nicu (me and one other) but it was still on the ward, right at the end of the ward so visiting my baby I had to walk past all of the other mummies and their babies, listen to them attending their babies all day and all night.

After 10 days I went home. Dd stayed in hospital without me. I was only allowed to stay for 10 days

Were you on a ward or in a private room itsawonderfulworld?

Private room the first time (given one due to the complications), ward the second time. And no, DH didn't stay 24/7 but was able to spend as much time there as we needed. He was there for much of the first couple of days, and then often came in the evenings, after work (and with DC2, after spending some time with DC1) bringing me things I needed, and stayed until the early hours helping out with the baby. I had mobility problems and would really have struggled otherwise.

Nobody wants to take resources and love and care away from your baby.

How is preventing a baby from being cared for by their parent for 12 hours shortly after birth not taking love and care away?

I'm pregnant. In the event I am unwell after birth (sadly a very real possibility due to my medical history) the person that 'should' be cuddling my newborn/changing its nappy/giving it care is its other parent.

I don't want to discomfort abuse survivors (which is why I want separate rooms/areas) and I do agree there needs to be more support for women on their own, and medical care.

But all the staff in the world isn't going to change that I want my baby to be cared for by its parents if at all possible.

ginsparkles

How awful. You should have had that side room for much longer. I'm glad you got your own special bay in the end, but still. It shows how little consideration is given for the mental well being of a post birth woman whose precious baby is not on the ward and is in intensive care. What is the thinking behind that?

Elendon - I never had my baby with me either, and was in a bay with six other babies (five mothers, one set of twins). So I heard everyone else's babies crying but not mine, I missed food on more than one occasion because I was down the corridor in NICU and it didn't seem to occur to them to hold anything for me. I wasn't even checked by a midwife until two days after I gave birth because I wasn't on the ward, and only then when DH went and asked whether anyone should have done anything, even basic stuff like check my blood pressure. I was discharged after a couple of days (straightforward delivery), but DS stayed in for longer.

The best bit was in the couple of days before DS came home when I was able to stay in a "rooming in" facility on NICU - basically a private room with a cot, a couple of chairs, and access to the parents kitchen so we could make ourselves some food (me and DH). In an ideal world, everyone would have this facility, but that is very unrealistic

In the event I am unwell after birth (sadly a very real possibility due to my medical history) the person that 'should' be cuddling my newborn/changing its nappy/giving it care is its other parent.

And of course I wouldn't want your child to be left without a parent to care for him/her.

But again: this isn't about finding the one solution that would work well for you (or me, or any other poster). This is about finding solutions that work for all women and babies.

absolutely right

BUT, what do we do in the interim?

Miss Duke obviously there were staff there but no one took the baby off me and he wouldn't settle. Through two nights I was alone with him and couldn't even feed him properly. They gave him formula the second evening but then he threw it up ten minutes later. I was up at 6am on the Sunday morning in labour and I next slept at 3am Tuesday when a nurse took PITY on me and said "I'm not supposed to do this but I'll watch him for a few hours". Previous midwives etc had said "I can't show you how to settle him. .you have to learn to do that yourself". Horrendous couple of days. ...it was only after I'd slept that I got the hang of breastfeeding and then I could be discharged.

Dc2 was born in the evening so she's and I stayed in the birth suite overnight and took turns with her (dc1 was with gps). Such a world of difference. Also bfeeding started easily, it wasn't such a massive culture shock, she was 40+5 so I was really expecting her (ds was 37+5 so a bit of a surprise ) Altogether much less stressful.

No idea why pity was capitalized there!

BUT, what do we do in the interim?

Well, we know some NHS hospitals are doing okay with staffing levels and care quality at the moment, and others are even moving to individual rooms. We could start by finding out what they're doing differently to the hospitals where this isn't happening.

We could also raise awareness of the current problems with postnatal care - as specific issues that can and should be fixed. It's clear that a lot of people aren't aware this is a problem, or don't care that it's a problem for others as long as they're all right.

We could start campaigning for improvements. I'll be interested to know what happens with MNHQ's thing in the new year. The big changes to labour and delivery from the 60s/70s (including dads being there for the birth!) came about because of pressure from people demanding that change.

What we shouldn't do is say "oh well, maybe in a perfect world we could improve things, but there's no point trying now." Part of the problem here is that women's concerns and rights and health aren't taken seriously. That's not something that's ever going to change without us continually kicking up hell about it - it never does.

Different categories of women and their possible need for birth partners to stay + mitigation

1: Women who have multiple births - might need extra support - could be provided by professionals/ allow some 24/7 visitors

2: Women who feel vulnerable in the company of strange men - don't want men there 24/7 - don't allow visitors 24/7

3: Women at risk of, or suffering from DV - shouldn't have partner there for some periods to allow them to speak to professionals if necessary - don't allow visitors 24/7

4: Women who need sleep - don't want extra people making noise at night - don't allow visitors 24/7

5: Women with ongoing mental/ physical health issues - might need their support person with them - allow some 24/7 visitors

Need trumps want, medical care trumps personal preference.

This is the policy at both the major maternity hospitals near me:

Your partner or an alternative birthing partner (one person only) 10.00 am - 8.00 pm

All other visitors - 2.00 pm - 4.30 pm and 6.30 pm - 8.00 pm

Only 4 visitors, including partner and children, are allowed at any one time.

They require curtains open unless bf, being examined, or getting changed to make observations easier.

When I gave birth to my son (EMCS at 3am after 40 hours of labour) I was transferred to the postnatal ward, given tea and toast and DH was able to settle me in and then go home. The MWs helped with lifting the baby and changing nappies until I could walk.

Their policy seems perfectly sensible.

Postnatal wards are busy and noisy enough without extra people who don't need to be there however much their partners want them there. A 'rule' that limits visitors to set hours but allows for exceptions where there is a medical or caring need is practical

There is little you can do in the interim. It took women decades to get men into the birthing room and a further few not to have episiotomies as standard (the rate is now low instead of high). Yes, it used to be just the birthing mum and scissors were used as standard - thankfully I missed that, my older sister didn't - she did have her partner in though and it was seen as most modern.

Now the pendulum has swung the other way. It seems to me a balance and compromise can be reached. Personally I don't see the need for birthing pools, double beds, mood music, candles, dim lighting and a partner that delivers takeaways to the ward. Most women are very healthy and give birth and are out within 24 hours. Perhaps more side rooms are needed (and stricter rules on visiting).

All these assumptions that all 'support people' (read the OP of the original thread, 'support person') are loving 'partners' and new fathers to bond with their babies.

I've been in wards where the guy in there visiting was the mother's man du jour.

Thank god most women do have it easier. But there are some who don't. I know I sound as if I am saying wah wah it's all about me, but my experience was pretty difficult and it's a good illustration. I had 3 weeks on the ward beforehand, due to a health issue and not feeling much movement, was monitored 5 times a day etc. by the time DD arrived I was fucked after 3 weeks of v little sleep and a lot of worry. I was also hugely stressed as I have a high pressure job and had 1 day to hand everything over instead of a smooth handover on my planned leaving date. I didn't ask for a private room because my nct friend was on the bed opposite and she was told they were all full. I know several other people who had babies at that hospital, and the rooms were always full!

So I would support any campaign for better care - but if I had another in the interim, and had the same issues again, there is just no way I would cope alone overnight. The staff were simply too busy to help (and nor would I want them to, ESP when it came to milking me for colostrum. Poor DP!).

So, how do we make sure that people who need their partners to stay can have the right levels of support during the time it takes for the stink to have an impact on practice?

I think in London it might be possible to split it in the short term - eg you could say queen charlottes is partner free; Chelsea and Westminster allows partners. Then ladies could choose when booking in. But in most other parts of the country, the hospitals are probably too far apart for that to help? Might be a useful pilot though to see how people really feel about it...

My dad was there for most if not all of mum's deliveries across three hospitals and at home, between 1960 and 1980. Usually at the business end as he delivered lots of babies as home births (GP) and was crap at the support side anyway

I think most of their contemporaries had husbands at the births.

My friend recently had her wedding in a naice hotel in knightsbridge. She chose it because it contained the bar where her father was busy getting smashed and smoking cigars whilst she was being born!

Wonder how many men would secretly want to go back to that if they could, and how many actually want to be there? Purely based on the men that I know, it's about a 50:50 split...

I think even trying to find out how people feel about it is tricky, although worth doing. How you phrase the question would matter a great deal.

"Do you want your Norman to be able to stay with you as long as you want?" (I think most people would say "yes" to this without thinking too hard about it.)

"Do you want to share a ward with other people's partners, 24/7? We have no facilities to do any kind of background check on them and no staffing to adequately supervise them, especially at night" (I bet that'd be a different answer!)

"If you had to choose between having your partner there but being on an overcrowded room with other people's partners too), and being only with other patients, which would you prefer?"

"If you don't have a partner who is able to be there, and you are on a ward with other people's partners, how safe/comfortable would you feel?"

And you'd have to also shape expectations around what postnatal wards look like and what kind of postnatal support women might need when they haven't experienced it before.

But I still think it's worth doing. It's clear from the last thread that many many women (I'm not saying you, but definitely other posters) haven't thought past "well my partner was fine, the other women's partners on my ward were fine, so I can't imagine how there could be any problems and think you're all being paranoid and sexist."

With private rooms if you don't ask you don't get. I'd imagine they'd be sympathetic towards a woman who'd had a long stressful stay in hospital based on my own experience.

My failing trust has managed to find and employ an extra 50 midwives for 2 hospitals in the last couple of months, so if the willing (or bad publicity) is there then staffing can be improved pretty quickly. Maybe if everyone who had poor care in postnatal complained to pals that would help hospitals see what the problems are.

I'm going to sit on the fence here for a bit as my experience of the NHS with my first child in the 1980s was very different than the one that I had with my third child in 2000.

DD1 was born in 1981. I was a vulnerable teenager, and at that point in my life, having men constantly on the ward would've been horrible for me. There were 2 visiting slots of 2 hours each, which was fine.

BUT, at that time, there were enough midwives and nursery assistants to give the new mothers all the help that they needed. This included helping to bathe and feed babies, talk to mothers about their concerns, and to bring their meals to them on a trolley. If a mother had trouble getting to the loo, they would either bring a bedpan and pull the curtains around the bed, or they would help them to the toilet.

To the matrons that ran the ward, the needs of her mothers and babies were paramount. Yes, they could be a bit scary, but they wouldn't take any crap, and if a visitor was being too disruptive she would step in.

It was also normal to spend 10 days in hospital after the birth. It gave new mum's a chance to get to know their babies and to have a rest. All of your meals were cooked for you and you didn't have to worry about housework. Also, if you had problems with BF there was someone there to help and encourage you.

I'm not saying it was perfect, but it was a lot better than what appears to be happening now.

Gosh I'm glad my baby days are behind me!

When I had my Children, in the early 90's fathers were only allowed on the ward for 4 hours a day, unless there were special circumstances and then it was at the ward sisters discretion. Even then it was extremely rare for fathers to be on the ward during the night.

Mums still went home, generally with a newborn who wasn't covered it poop and the new fathers still managed to bond with their children.

I would have been fine with very limited partner visiting even during the day, personally. I'd have missed DH but it would have made such a difference to me if I'd been able to properly rest. But I appreciate this one is just not going to happen - it seems like my postnatal ward was unusual in kicking partners out at mealtimes.

53rd

In the maternity home i stayed in they kicked people out at mealtimes

Meals were lush, massive desserts

If you're in hospital post-birth, it's because you have a medical need. It's not like it was some years ago when mothers were recovering or bonding. The NHS is clear on their single sex policy which is for dignity. Why don't post natal mothers deserve the same level of dignity as every other patient in the hospital?!