Partner on wards after birth - part 2!

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

Wanted to continue this discussion as someone asked about stats re impact of visitors on wards.

I doubt there's stats anywhere (can't find anything with a quick Google anyway) but ask yourselves, why are visiting times the NHS over generally kept to a few hours a day? Because it's disruptive for the ward and patients need rest, and it can be a huge infection prevention risk. This is no different for maternity.

Original Thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2790704-About-partners-on-the-ward-after-childbirth

i had a massively traumatic birth with ds, and was still fairly out of it on drugs when my dh was ushered off home at 2am as he wasn't allowed on the ward.
i was then alone, unable to walk, with a baby, until 8:30 the next morning.
visiting hours, even for the fathers were 8:30-10:30, 12:30 - 2:30, 6:30-8:30
i'm pretty sure a combination of being alone in a hospital, and the subsequent early discharge i forced so i could be home with him, contributed to my pnd.

In the mixed sex ward I recently started on, there were 'male bays' and 'female bays' (with 6 beds per bay). As a stop gap measure couldn't post natal wards be similarly divided into areas for those who want to be female only for large portions of the day, and those that want their partners support/and to be caregiver to their baby?

This would be good but as people pointed out before what happens when a woman who doesn't want to be in with men gives birth at 1am, and the only space is in a ward with men? Does she put up with it or do they get kicked out? This would be realistic situation and means that someone gets the care they weren't promised.

I still think we should be campaigning for proper privacy for women after birth.

I agree, not just privacy but more adequate care where women aren't being left in pools of blood with bells nor being answered. Hoping MNHQ will get back to my request on their backing for a campaign around this

Yeah, I'm talking to you, tiny little one hour old baby whose mother physically can't attend to you. You suck it up and have your first hours in the world hungry/covered in shit/crying in your cot. Serves you right for not being born during Cherry's 12 Hour Visiting Period, or in her hospital that could spare delivery rooms so she could have her partner with her. No no, no complaining, you're being selfish.

ODFOD and stop making everything about me, this PA shit about 'babies deserve bad things because they were born at a bad time' is frankly childish and unhelpful.

Do you care as much about women who give birth alone and have no partner, or do you only froth when at the thought of men being excluded?

Or better yet, tell me what your compromise would be for women who don't want men around 24:7?

Having had two EMCS I haven't any personal experience, but how long typically are you in the delivery room after a vaginal delivery? I'm guessing you aren't moved immediately to post natal?

I am surprised that there aren't legal issues preventing trusts that force women to sleep in a ward with men they do not know.

Imagine a woman who cannot be discharged, has no support person and she asks not to be placed on a ward where men are sleeping. What happens when she is placed on such a ward and then she is attacked by the DP of another patient who has actually served time for DV or SA??

he was so close I could have patted him on the head. Awful when you're having a discussion about your vagina every 2 hours with someone and you're trying to breastfeed, not burst into tears and are pissing yourself or bleeding into the floor.

I agree that's really awful. But for me it would be no less awful if the person so close was female (but there are lots of posters who will no doubt come and tell me that their discomfort needs to be taken more seriously than mine). Simply pushing men out the wards for half the time fixes privacy issues for the group of women who are happy to bleed and piss in front of other women, but it does nothing for the rest of us.

We need more genuine privacy, and not less options for support.

Cherry, you started the second thread, it seems a bit odd for you to now complain we are going in circles

Why do our councils and the NHS insist on wasting OUR money??

Good question, a mix of bureaucracy, incompetent and unnecessary management and a blame culture where people are terrified to deviate from the rules through fear of being reprimanded. My manager got a massive bollocking for going direct to a supplier which saved the unit £300 - even though the preferred supplier would have given the same service. She got threatened with disciplinary action.

But that's just my observation having worked in public sector all my adult life

We need more genuine privacy, and not less options for support.
This (and the rest of your post butterflies) is exactly right. Hear hear.

I just think why wouldn't the father want to be there to bond with his new baby. He's also waited 9 months for the baby to arrive and I'm sure he's more interested in his own partner and own baby than a muffled discussion through the curtain about someone else's vagina.

Even if the men weren't there the woman in the next bed would hear too so what's the difference? It's a bit silly to assume that just because we own a vagina every man around is interested it.

I think the only work around to keep everyone at ease is to provide wards for women who want their partner to stay, and therefore accept other men will also be staying. Then another ward for women who would rather not have unknown men there all night, and in turn accept their partner will have to go home.

I'm horrified that the feelings of women who have survived sexual violence and rape, are disregarded in favour of partners being there to 'help out' I.e. fill the gap in NHS care.

Out of curiosity I've just had a look at my local trusts policy and they say partners can stay over, and it also expects all curtains to be open and pulled back. How on earth can women establish breastfeeding and deal with other complications of birth/ bleeding comfortably when they are exposed to half a dozen men they've never met before? I'm agog that this is allowed.

It's not just privacy, it's also about feeling/being vulnerable. I feel vulnerable being expected to sleep in a room with unknown men. Much more vulnerable than with unknown women who are also patients in the same vulnerable position as me. I feel vulnerable to the point of not being able to sleep. I'd probably have to discharge myself against medical advice. I think it's fairly common to not feel able to sleep in that circumstance? Or at least not particularly unusual?

Having had two EMCS I haven't any personal experience, but how long typically are you in the delivery room after a vaginal delivery? I'm guessing you aren't moved immediately to post natal?

I've only ever given birth once, but I had a PPH and 3rd degree tear so not a smooth birth as it was 'press the red button and 12 people pile in' situation. It was a probably 3 or so hours before they had stemmed the bleeding, stitched me up, changed bed while I was still in it, cleaned the floor etc, I was there for 6 hours in total after giving birth, I can't recall but assume someone else needed the room by then.

Interesting one re infection risk. At the hospital where I gave birth, one girl on the ward had a female friend stay with her. The visiting friend was clearly very ill with flu as the new mother was trying to get hold of more painkillers so they could share. Needless to say I was horrified someone would come sick to a postnatal ward, exacerbated by the fact our baby was premature.

On the other hand, I was in hospital for a total of 3 weeks (1 pre and 2 post birth) with some serious complications and a post op infection that meant having a IV drip in my arm that made it almost impossible to feed our baby. Having my husband there meant the world to me as he could help ensure our baby got the care and attention he needed to when I was unable to. The ward was simply not sufficiently staffed to expect the midwives to help often enough. It was a stressful experience as it was and would've been ten fold if my husband had had to go home at 9 every night.

So in short, I'm all for partners being able to stay the night but people need to be sensible and considerate, and the midwives need to look out for anyone doing something stupid that could upset or pose a risk to the patients.

So a new dad can only visit his child for a could hours a day, I value my husband more than that why should he sit at home and be away from his newborn?

He's more interested in his own partner and own baby than a muffled discussion through the curtain about someone else's vagina
Maybe but as a PP said how would you feel if you were having a smear test under the same conditions??

Sorry, for a few?

PupPup the father/partner can have 12 hours a day visiting time to "bond" with the baby. Plenty of time I think. And most importantly, the father/partner is NOT a patient. They don't have any clinical/medical need to be there 24hrs. The wants of fathers/partners should not be put above the needs of patients.

You are also assuming that every father/partner is reasonable and nice. Plenty of examples on the previous thread where that really wasn't the case.

I just think why wouldn't the father want to be there to bond with his new baby. He's also waited 9 months for the baby to arrive and I'm sure he's more interested in his own partner and own baby than a muffled discussion through the curtain about someone else's vagina.

Even if the men weren't there the woman in the next bed would hear too so what's the difference? It's a bit silly to assume that just because we own a vagina every man around is interested it.

FFS can we stop this gaslighting bollocks. I don't want to have a conversation about my vagina with a man in earshot, because I do t k ow wether he cares, ether he's laughing or generally give a fig what his views are. I can't imagine many men want to discuss their penis issues on front of strange women either, me or caring about another person's penis issues doesn't matter a jot. It IS different when his partner has been through the same thing as you. I suggest you read the other thread where there's many many examples of men who aren't just interested in their own baby, but have harrassed and terrified other mums and monopolised staff time.

Also as has been pointed out before, postnatal wards are to care medically for patients, not facilitating bonding for a father. Who, in most places it seems, gets 12 hours of bonding time, plus all the opportunities when baby goes home after a few days. I don't think men having 24 hours of bonding time rather than 12, for just a few days, should ever trump a woman's care and right to privacy and dignity.

For goodness sake. The NHS is a free service. Private ensuite rooms????? Completely unrealistic.
In Spain they are much more matter of fact about maternity care......people in the UK have no idea how good they have it with the NHS. Now....having said that....Spain has a good solution to this problem such as it is (ie.....not much of one really). There are a few private rooms available. You can request one and they are subject to availability . If you get one...you pay between 70 and 100 euros per night for it . Seems like a fair compromise to me.

That should have read me NOT caring about another person's penis!

This would be good but as people pointed out before what happens when a woman who doesn't want to be in with men gives birth at 1am, and the only space is in a ward with men? Does she put up with it or do they get kicked out? This would be realistic situation and means that someone gets the care they weren't promised.

I agree it's not perfect, but in my example at most one bay of 6 people ends up being mixed (until a bed becomes available) and everyone else on the ward gets their preference which is a lot better than having one blanket rule for the whole ward, meaning a lot more unhappy people.

And I didn't suggest NHS should 'promise' people they will have a choice, any more than they can 'promise' access to private rooms or birthing pools etc. Just that where possible peoples request would be honoured, but emergencies/lack of beds etc. take precedent.

Again, all of this for me is a messy compromise because the real solution is to arrange genuine privacy.

I decided to check out my local hospital to see if they had started this policy and here is some of the information -

• Only one adult family member or partner may stay at any one time for support
• Curtains must remain open in order that staff can observe that you and your baby are well.
• All partners in shared bays must respect the privacy and dignity of other women, partners and babies and keep noise to a minimum overnight so that all mothers can get as much well-needed rest as possible.

How they expect people to have privacy when the curtains must remain open is beyond me.

So a new dad can only visit his child for a could hours a day, I value my husband more than that why should he sit at home and be away from his newborn?

Do you not value the rights of other women to feel safe and private at such a vulnerable time, let alone women who have been victims of sexual violence and are even more perceptive to the presence of men they don't know?

Partners already have extended visiting hours, way in excess of just a couple. Not spending the first night or first few nights with a baby won't affect the fathers bond with it.

Men are not the patients in maternity services. Their wants shouldn't trump the needs of other women who are patients needing medical care.

Promise was a bad choice of word butterflies, expectation makes more sense.

But I don't think anyone can achieve 'genuine privacy' with 24/7 visitors from others. I think it's the only things that makes matenirty care completely unprivate, as there's not a moments respite