To think the English attitude to learning can be very weird?

[DorothyL]

So often you read "no point in doing more than eight gcses/3 a levels, not needed for later/university"

How about doing subjects to LEARN something, not just to use them as a stepping stone? In other countries eg Germany youngsters continue with a broad range of subjects right through their school career.

Here I have met many teenagers who are woefully ignorant about all sorts of things - due to the fact they specialise far too early!?

Have schools changed so much in the 16 years since I left? I studied more subjects than the op right up until leaving age

But we do learn, don't we?
I have learnt considerably more about the world since leaving education. My husband regularly says he learnt more in his first year working than anything he learnt at university. It's just a different type of learning. I must say I would likely struggling if someone asked me to name all the different types of alliteration (plosive, fricative... Ahh?!) but that doesn't mean I'm not still learning.

Also I have 15 GCSEs? Don't I?

Do the Germans not teach that the UK includes countries other than England?

If I wanted to learn something in greater depth, a GCSE course wouldn't be the way to go about it. You sit down on day one of Year 10 with a copy of the marking scheme and from then on it's all "right, what does the examiner want to see?" and "here's how we get that 5 mark question!" We sat and crafted answers for two years, memorised the catchphrases that would rake in marks. It's not learning. It's literal box ticking for the school's league table position.

I do think there are some odd attitudes around, though. Learning for fun, pleasure or enrichment isn't considered worthwhile - it's all "well, what job will you do with that?" or "how much money will that earn?" Learning for pleasure is sneered at.

And in some quarters trying hard at school in any way shape or form is sneered at.

Who was that aimed at, BestIsWest? The OP was talking about England, not the UK, prrsumably because that's the part of the UK whose system she's encountered. Other people are talking about the UK. Even if people talk about the UK education system when all they are really referring to is the English system, I hardly think it's a great crime not to know that there are differences between the education systems in different parts of the UK. That would not mean that you didn't know the UK had other countries in it apart from England.

You can often do a uni course without the corresponding A level or even GCSE.
There is lots of flexibility actually. I know someone who didn't do GCSE history then did it for A level.

I did economics as a subsid. Never opened an economics textbook before uni!

You don't need A level biology to be a nurse or a Doctor.
You don't need the lanuage to study it at uni often. Think Russian, Dutch, Chinese.
Many jobs do not need a particular degree.

Most Germans I think won't know the difference between the U.K, England and GB.

German mother lives in Austria and their vocational system is excellent and well-funded and so different from ours that it makes me want to cry. Integrated with employers and real job-at-the-end apprenticeships, German, English and Maths to eighteen, taken as seriously as university education.

I did an evening plumbing course at an FE college a few years ago and the tutor was endlessly frustrated at terrible basic skills his 16+ English kids were coming in with, many functionally illiterate and innumerate for a profession you need to be mathematically competent for. The Polish guys were the only ones who could cope, and they had English as a second language. Bit embarrassing, really.

IB is our best hope here. Did it, basically learned nothing at top Russell Group uni compared to in 6th form at school. Am evangelical about it. I'm hoping I can afford to send my DCs somewhere to do IB in 6th form.

I weasand am furious that they have to choose between Geography and History at such a young age. Who decided that only one was necessary and for what?

was and am

alleykitten - I had dinner last night with my nephew, who started university this term having been at an international school in mainland Europe where he did the IB. He is at an intercollegiate hall in London and knows students at other universities and on other courses. He is at the standard of spoken and written English of some of the British students.

I'm no fan of the German secondary system. Work in it, have children in it.

Yes they take a range of subjects but they can fail the equivalent of GCSE if they fail one subject. It's a formula, add up the marks (1=A, 5=E=fail) main subjects count for more. If you're not good at sciences and fail 2 but are really good at all other subjects, you fail the whole thing.

And you have nothing. And here if you have nothing you're fucked.

I know someone with a B (equivalent) average in 9 subjects. 1 of them had 4 modules. He failed one of the 4. Teacher came one week before the end of term and told him he'd failed and should go and register as unemployed.

No consultation, no prior info despite it being continual assessment. No chance to repeat the year. Teachers refused to even take a phone call. It can be brutal.

British

The example I mentioned above was from not from a demanding grammar school btw, but a vocational school which are often lauded in the UK.

But GCSEs don't equal learning. People can cram for GCSEs and have forgotten within weeks. Many do.
My kids know loads of stuff that will never be covered by an exam. They know it because they're interested. If there was an exam and a curriculum prescribing what they should learn and how, because it would be covered by the exam, chances are they wouldn't be learning as broadly as now in those topics. Teaching or learning to a test can become dull, stressful and demotivating.

It is precisely because of this and because I want my kids to have time and headspace to develop their own interests that I'm in the just enough GCSEs brigade.

But when are schools supposed to provide all this extra learning? How much actual teaching time is there in a school day, when you take out admin, break, lunch, etc? Then when you're actually in the classroom, take out all the time taken up with 'stop talking, Miranda' 'stop flipping that bottle, Damien' 'I haven't got a pen, Miss' 'what page did you say, Miss?' 'I forgot my homework, Miss'.

There is actually quite a lot of provision for lifelong learning in the UK, if people just look for it. I work in the field, so I know. There's less now than there was twenty or thirty years ago. That's partly due to changes in funding, but it's also to a large extent because people just don't come to classes any more. I've seen many classes close because there just weren't enough bums on seats.

Harriet - teaching time is only one variable in overall learning time.

I teach maths in a high-attaining secondary stuffed with the middle classes. If I go off-piste and start talking about infinity or the history of zero or Pythagoras and his religion some kids inevitably say 'will this be on the test?' 'No' 'Pfft why are you telling us then?'.

Leading to 17 year olds who don't know what a bishop is, or NATO. the parents are to blame here. The school can't teach you everything. Parents should encourage their children to read more and have a wider knowledge. Parents should be able to discuss NATO at the dinner table if mentioned in the news.

www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms

"I think by the time people reach their mid-to-late-teens, they should take some responsibility for informing and educating themselves, and not expect school to do it all."

Hahaha. You clearly don't know many teenagers then. DD did GCSEs this year and is currently in year 12 struggling with the workload of 4 A levels. There is no way she has the inclination to learn anything else. When she isn't studying she just wants down time and sleep.

PurpleGold Interesting that you found the students not being able to think for themselves are from state schools. This isn't the experience of my friend who sent her son to private school all the way through from primary to A levels. He and several of his friends really struggled with going away to university, and several have dropped out.

Interestingly, OH works with several Chinese and South Korean companies and he finds that their education system of hothousing the children until they are highly qualified has completely destroyed their ability to think for themselves. They need a lot of hand holding and to be told what to do. They just can't think outside of the box.

I agree that our education system isn't great. It is just an exam production line.

nickname some kids don't fit in much besides their schools studies, but many do.

Lots of kids do sport, drama, DofE, clubs, an MFL, volunteering. You name it.

I recall the HT at DD's previous school stating repeatedly that DC with lots of outside interests and full commitment to 'school life' is stuff outside lessons, made for happier and more successful students.

My DC have always crammed in loads and I think been the happier and more rounded for it. Sometimes DD is a little over scheduled and I worry about tiredness but it always seems to pass.

Fiderer "No chance to repeat the year."
Can I ask which Bundesland this is, just out of interest? Neither system is perfect. But on balance I'd go with Germany every time (well, the system as experienced over many years in a particular region, anyway).

Eleanor "Funny though that so many Germans are unhappy with their own system."
Yes, many are. But I don't think that there is a greater level of unhappiness than in England. Abitur is certainly tough and much of the criticism is justified.

Not everybody needs or wants Abitur/A levels/Uni though. Germany recognises and caters for this far better than England, in my opinion. I don't know much about the systems in Scotland, Wales and NI but perhaps it's better there?

... Having said that I'm not a fan of the early specialisation and streaming in Germany though.