To think the English attitude to learning can be very weird?

[DorothyL]

So often you read "no point in doing more than eight gcses/3 a levels, not needed for later/university"

How about doing subjects to LEARN something, not just to use them as a stepping stone? In other countries eg Germany youngsters continue with a broad range of subjects right through their school career.

Here I have met many teenagers who are woefully ignorant about all sorts of things - due to the fact they specialise far too early!?

[NicknameUsed]

"Lots of kids do sport, drama, DofE, clubs, an MFL, volunteering. You name it."

DD does help out at Brownies once a week, but she is just too tired and time poor to do much else.

[Natsku]

I'm in Finland and here they don't drop subjects at all in comprehensive school (ends at 15/16) and if they go to academic high school they have to do core subjects which include mother tongue, i think two other languages, maths, physics, chemistry, biology, history, religious studies or ethics, philosophy, psychology, P.E. (which includes ballroom dancing and they have a proper Ball), health and preparation for working life, and then they choose extra specialised courses on top of that.

[redexpat]

I dont know how similar German gymnasiums are to Danish, but I think its worth pointing out that british children start formal schooling earlier. The stuff that is covered in gymnasium (sixthform)in denmark is what I did at gcse. They dont even have as many exams or certificates at 16 as we do, it seems like the curriculum starts narrow, broadens at gymnasium before choosing higher education.

[throckenholt]

I think it is because all subjects end in an exam - so the emphasis ends up on the bit of paper you get, rather than the knowledge you gained.

I would far rather no subject specific exams, but a general exam at the end that shows your ability to think, and a list of all the subjects you have studied (and maybe for how many years).

[noblegiraffe]

Someone upthread said that the UK is going down the Chinese route. This article by a primary head who visited China suggests otherwise:

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/testing-regime-heaps-so-much-pressure-school-leaders-i-may-be-forced

The incredibly narrow focus on test results comes at the expense of everything else, including the wellbeing of our students.

[throckenholt]

You hear kids saying - why did I have to study this if it wasn't on the exam ?!
Somehowour system doesn't teach them to value knowledge and familiarity with a broad range of subjects.

[Headofthehive55]

So children succeed and fit some systems. I think it leads you to question the system when your child is not succeeding.

Some people are hugely bright in one area, but are unable to work at that level at several areas.

It's a bit like the oympics. The broad system us a bit like the heptathlon. But the narrow system is a bit like individual sports.

[merrymouse]

The stuff that is covered in gymnasium (sixthform) in denmark is what I did at gcse.

Yes - traditionally one of the features of UK education was not just early specialisation, but that the vast majority of people were expected to finish at 16 and leave without qualifications. Subjects studied at 14/15/16 by those planning on taking A-levels and go on to university were supposed to be hard and cover material that would be beyond the abilities of most of the population. By the time you were 16, you were ready to specialise.

[brasty]

Totally agree. British culture does not value learning for learnings sake. It is simply seen as a means to an end. This is not the same in all cultures. Very sad.

[NotDavidTennant]

Education is very heavily interlinked with notions of class in the UK. "Book learning" is seen as something quite effete and middle class, and by the same token vocational skills are seen as being a bit common and only suitable for those lacking in social ambition.

[Bobochic]

Perhaps, but lack of intellectual breadth and depth and rigour is deeply rooted in the exam system now. It's hard to escape, even at so-called top schools.

[brasty]

It is rooted in our whole culture. The reason education was allowed to change to being about exams, is because learning is not valued in our culture at all.

[alleykitten]

Bobochic DP, Swedish, is constantly correcting basic spelling and grammar when examining PhDs. His opinion of British education is pretty damning. And he went to a regular state school in Sweden - no grammars there.

Many of the non-Brit kids who came to my school for 6th form had better English grammar and spelling before starting there, let alone after 2 years. And that was in an environment where their peers had been in an expensive academically selective public school. We have very low expectations.

[Bobochic]

alleykitten - Were you at Sevenoaks?

[topcat2014]

At the end of the day, by the time A levels come around, most people will have a a feel of things they are better and worse at.

I chose three sciences - as I liked them.
If it was compulsory, I could have taken Geography or History and probably got an ok mark - with no massive enthusiasm.
If you had to take an art subject - for me that would have been a definite fail,

Then, completely changed my mind about possible degree (ie not biology) and then the world of work.

As a concept - specialising 'too early' is bad, I suppose, but for me it couldn't come soon enough.

[ZbZb]

Our kids have been educated in local schools in three different countries and my opinion is that there is no ideal system that will suit everyone. What will suit one child won't suit another. I actually think the U.K. system is not that bad. I like the fact that most DC have at least some choice between A'levels, btech or apprentices. I also like the fact that you get several chances to do well so if you mess up your GCSEs or A levels you are not doomed forevermore or if you only manage to get to a lower tariff Uni you can still excel and do a masters at a much higher tariff Uni. That flexibility doesn't exsist in some education systems.
I also like the fact that most DC go to University. As long as they find the right course at the right Uni it should be a positive and worthwhile experience.

[derxa]

Education is very heavily interlinked with notions of class in the UK. "Book learning" is seen as something quite effete and middle class Well not so much in Scotland. Although that may have changed.

[PurpleGold]

"Germany is one of the biggest markets for British private schools because so many Germans find it difficult to succeed with the Abitur." In general private schools are frowned upon in Germany and children who attend PS are often those who are not able to get on with it in Gymnasium (grammar school) or who might have issues with behaviour. I'd say the German school system is not that brilliant (is any?) and there are huge regional variations with Bavaria having very high standards but many schools in Berlin Brandenburg not so much. The Gymnasium I went to had rather high standards but I did struggle and you are often surrounded by children from more ambitious and pushy middle class families. If the grandparents and parents went to Gymnasium it would be seen as a mark of shame and failure if your off spring doesn't get to because they are not academic enough. this system is actually very elitist and I am only now beginning to comprehend how it has shaped me as a person more critically.

Re Belgian student I don't know anybody from Belgium and can't comment on their education system. I don't mean any offence when I say that at my Uni the English state school educated students were less independent than German or French students. Those who were educated at Catholic school in the UK or private tended to be very confident and outspoken and less trying to please their tutor taking more charge of their own learning.

Through my own children I have realised that it is seen as 'not knowing you place as a pupil' to not nod and smile at everything the teachers do. But there are many things I love about what I have experienced here. An emphasis on excellent behaviour for example though I imagine this verses between schools. I do feel though that the expectations are set too high and that children shouldn't start formal school before the age of 5/6.

[Fiderer]

The German system is still elitist. At a recent Open Day for prospective students at a local (state) Gymnasium/grammar school the head started his speech by saying, "We are a school for future CEO's" and went on to say (as he does every year) that if your child cannot get As or Bs without help then this is not the school for them.

And yes to the element of shame and failure. There was UN criticism of the system here in 2007, that children are divided up according to ability after just four years of school and sent to three different kinds of high school, depending on ability and that leads to social inequality.

It's a system only found in Germany, Austria and some German Cantons in Switzerland. And it doesn't work. Germany's school system gave a disappointing performance in the 2003 PISA study, conducted by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which compares academic performance in different countries.

There was a flurry of huffiness, shock, hand-wringing and some action. It hasn't changed the attitude though.

[PurpleGold]

Fiderer, maybe the system worked better previously when children going to Realschule and Hauptschule would start their apprenticeships upon leaving school, now people are expected to have higher school qualifications such as abitur or fach abitur to compete for an apprenticeship.

My Gymnasium was next for to a Hauptschule ('Basic school) where behaviour was appalling and most children came from low income families with behavioural problems. Thinking back i can't believe how for granted we all took our own privileged schooling and how from the age of 11 we knew that we weren't "that type of uneducated person".

I have a massive love for learning and am a poster child for 'life long learning' and being informed as well as critically thinking. I guess mostly thats good but I must admit I have been knowledge snob (trying to be aware and change ).

[PurpleGold]

I'd be quite curious to learn if Grammar schools in the UK are a bit like the German Gymnasium? Elistis and a bit 'snobbish'

[scaryteacher]

Leading to 17 year olds who don't know what a bishop is, or NATO Strange, my ds, and nephews knew what a bishop is, and what and where NATO is, at 17.

Parents should be able to discuss NATO at the dinner table if mentioned in the news. We used to discuss it without it being in the news....pretty hard not to ask your dh how his day went!

[DorothyL]

It's certainly not the case that all Gymnasien are elitist and snobbish, they vary greatly.

[nooka]

My children are at school in Canada and the approach here is very different to the UK. This year we have just had an educational reform that removes pretty much all of the exams we had left (six over three years) and replaces them with a literacy and a numeracy assessment only. Otherwise it's all continuous assessment. This gives different pressures because if you start off poorly it can be hard to get very high marks, but compared to my English and Welsh nieces is clearly a great deal less stressful. It's also more rounded, with only English compulsory in the final year (12), math, a general social science and a science course compulsory in year 11 and then a certain number of other courses across 10-12 which can be academic or applied (including trades courses). You get a leaving certificate type qualification.

For university and advanced trades courses there are more specific requirements (eg dd want to do arts and needs a language up to 12), but it's still fairly general, usually there is a requirement for a certain % in English and then an average mark in three/four academic and your best elective course.

At university the first two years are fairly general and then you choose your major, with options of dual major, major and minor or interdisciplinary. ds has been told he can combine a humanities major with a science major if he wants, although it will be hard work.

[BarbarianMum]

I think if you do 8 GCSES rather than 12, or 3 A levels rather than 5, then you will have far more time to do other activities, sports and hobbies. Not all worthwhile learning happens in he classroom.