To think the English attitude to learning can be very weird?

[DorothyL]

So often you read "no point in doing more than eight gcses/3 a levels, not needed for later/university"

How about doing subjects to LEARN something, not just to use them as a stepping stone? In other countries eg Germany youngsters continue with a broad range of subjects right through their school career.

Here I have met many teenagers who are woefully ignorant about all sorts of things - due to the fact they specialise far too early!?

[Renniehorta]

I have 2 degrees and know quite a lot about a limited range of subjects as a result. However my general knowledge I am quite convinced comes from a life time of listening to Radio 4. My mother always listened to Radio 4 and so I just absorbed a wide range of information from when I was small child.

My son also has a wide general knowledge, quite untypical for his age. He too was subjected to a childhood background of Radio 4.

Education is not just what is taught to you at school.

[CoteDAzur]

"Education is not just what is taught to you at school."

No, but the purpose of school is education.

And if large segments of the population are leaving full-time formal education in the UK after 20 years without basic understanding of the world they live in (whatever their chosen specialty), that is a problem.

[LorelaiVictoriaGilmore]

But is breadth of knowledge necessarily a good thing? Is breadth always better than depth?! I gave up geography when I was 12 because I had no particular interest in geography. I gave up sciences and maths after GCSE. I pick up bits and pieces of those subjects from time to time, but I never had any particular interest or aptitude and I am glad that I was in an education system that didn't force me to continue subjects I had no interest in beyond a certain point.

[Natsku]

However my general knowledge I am quite convinced comes from a life time of listening to Radio 4

I too, was a Radio 4 child, and am also quite certain that a vast amount of my general knowledge came from that, and watching University Challenge as a family. And my political knowledge as a child and teenager came from watching HIGNFY as a family and always listening to the News on Radio 4 at teatime. Is it possible to listen to Radio 4 abroad? I want to subject my child to that too.

[PurpleGold]

GetaHeairct


you posted:
"For example Germany's system produces a paucity of creatives."
I am saying that is not factual nonsense. There are plenty of highly qualified very talented creative professionals in Germany and a blooming creative industry.
Wrt exporting books produced in Germany check this out
www.amazon.de/KÖNEMANN-VERLAG-Bücher/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A186606%2Ck%3AKÖNEMANN%20VERLAG

a myrade of books produced by creative proffesioansl in GErmanyw which have been translated into several languages and exported across the world. I'ms sorry but what you say in terms of "a paucity of creatives" is simply not true and I have no idea why you keep insisting that it is so

[merrymouse]

You can listen to radio broadcasts from pretty much any country via the internet and radio stations also produce podcasts.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

purple I did not say there were no creative people in Germany.

I was simply pointing out the issues in the publishing industry and television/ film industry. Both areas I know extremely well and deal with very regularly.

But you can believe what you want. It's a free country.

[Igneococcus]

At least cultural life isn't as focused on London and the big cities in Germany as it is in the UK. My 130K population home town has a fantastic Stadttheater which puts on about 15 shows every year including plays, opera, ballet and shows specifically for children. My working class parents had season tickets all their married life. I have never come across anything like it her in Scotland, might be different in the rest of the UK.
I assume the focus on London is what drives some of the creative strength in the UK, they all concentrate in one area whereas they dilute out a lot more in Germany.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

cory I agree that here in the UK great foreign writers are too often not on our radar (though this is changing a bit).

This is rooted in many reasons of course, not least our island nation outlook. But also our own success here. We are awash in writers. Publishers have native written books aplenty to publish, without seeking work from abroad - the exact opposite of Germany.

But actually if we take the UK out of the picture and compare Germany with other non English speaking countries, their buy in rate is higher. Their sell out rate lower.

[PurpleGold]

Get you said that there is a shortage of creatives in German ("a paucity of creatives" to be precise) , and I'd say (also with a fair amount of experience of the sector here and in Germany) that that isn't so. We will have to agree to disagree.

[Natsku]

My little town in Finland has an a disproportionately big cultural life - several art museums and galleries, the largest private art collection in Northern Europe (much of which is viewable at the museums), every summer there are the 'art weeks' which has a big temporary modern art collection out of which several artists from around the world are chosen to spend a year in an art scholarship, classical music festivals, lots of music performances, weekly free documentary viewings at the cinema. Its amazing!

[almondpudding]

I agree with the parents mentioned at the beginning of the thread who said there is no point in doing A level art.

You can get into art school with a portfolio. You don't need an A level in it.

And it is really easy to learn art skills on cheap courses at any point in your life.

It is much harder to pick up A level Maths or Science at other points or fit it in around existing commitments.

[almondpudding]

There is of course a point in. A level art if you love doing it.

[PurpleGold]

Thinking about it I'd say the the majority of my friends and several members of my extended family work in the creative industries especially in TV production and product design. I have also mentioned that German art & design schools are impressive and have extremely high expectations of their students to the point where it is very rare to be admitted to a programme straight out of school (after Abi) because they expect their entry candidates to have developed some maturity in their approach to art and design.

Also think about the talent pool for English writing Get it's enormous. There are 1.5 billion English speakers in the world (English as first language) and 101 million native German speakers.

You simply can't say that because Germany buys in and translates more literary work from English to German than vice versa that there is a shortage of creative in Germany, that just doesn't make sense.

[PurpleGold]

*work in the creative industries in Germany I should add not here in the UK.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

purple as I pointed out, Germany buys in more than other comparable non English speaking countries! And sells out less.

You can pretend it aint so if you like.

With regards to the UK, we disproportionately publish native written books. Not books written in English. And disproportionately sell out more.

Ditto scripts.

[Bobochic]

The sheer volume/value of the international market for publishing in English drives the sector in the English speaking world. Education is far from being the only driver.

[almondpudding]

Raising the age and experience level at which people can access university is not a good thing.

It makes it harder for people to fit in having kids, and it creates more elitist fields, because ordinary kids can't spend years getting relevant experience first.

The same problem exists with acting having become highly elitist in the UK.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

bobo actually it's much easier for a UK writer to be published in translation in Europe than in English speaking countries like the US.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

But yes, of course it's not just education that drives the success of artistic talent in the UK.

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

I also listened to Radio 4 as a child but it was having a family that listened to Radio 4 that is key. That indicates an interest in current affairs and 'general knowledge'. My parents had very different levels of education Dad was born in the 1930's had passed the 11+ and was the first in his family to go to University (he also did National Service abroad) he was well read and interested in Politics, was instrumental in founding cooperative businesses and trained as an Industrial Chemist. Mum was born in the '50s left school at 15 and was employed in low status jobs til she married. She was the one listening to Radio 4 all day as she was interested in the world and had an awareness that her education was lacking. But speaking to her it would not have been immediately apparent that she was dismissed as 'factory fodder' at the age of 11.

As children we were shown that it was good to have an interest in the world and in learning, we talked about politics at the dinner table and it wasn't education for the sake of a good job or money. Dad was rubbish with money (and married twice and had 6 kids!) we lived in council houses in relative poverty. All his children have been educated to degree level and beyond all have interesting jobs that earn a pittance - The eldest is a teacher she is probably the highest earner!

So in my ramble somewhere there is a point! Education - interest in it and getting the most from it starts at home. My parents cared about my education - they instilled an understanding that it is learning how to learn that gives you access to knowledge and now I am confident in my abilities to learn new skills at 40+. My mother had no home support and little to inspire her in the 1960s secondary school system where you were marking time until you could leave and get a factory job - she managed to instill confidence in me though she has none in herself.

[Bobochic]

Sure, because a whole rights industry has grown up around that.

My father spent his whole career in sales/marketing in international publishing and witnessed all sorts of structural market shifts. Ease of publication and size of market are (unfortunately) not directly correlated to quality.

[merrymouse]

It's true that the best selling books in the UK seem to be books that were written in English. However, that isn't necessarily a sign that the UK is more 'creative'. It could equally be true that people have more parochial tastes in the UK.

www.whsmith.co.uk/chart/books/fiction-02x08974

I'm not making an argument one way or another, but I suspect it's more complicated than just counting books in translation.

[Karatemonchichi]

Get
"You can pretend it aint so if you like."

I am not pretending anything but find it odd that you continue insisting that there is a shortage of creative professionals in Germany, that is simply not true even if German publishing houses buy proportionally more translated works than other countries.

As I said I have no huge insight into book publishing but know a fair bit about the design, film and TV as well as the arts sectors and believe me there is no shortage of highly educated and very talented designers and producers, sound artists etc. Also all those translated books will need deign work which is most likely done by German cretives so it's a further boost to the creative industry there.

Have you considered get (not sure if this is so but I'm wondering if it might!!) that maybe German publishers are happy to invest in foreign writing (are you talking about fiction btw or fact books?) because they are rather outward looking and have the means to invest in this way? Germans are suckers for anything English so I imagine there is a market there of consumers who love to read stuff form abroad.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

karate

German publishing houses are not happy with the current paradigm!
Editors want to discover new stuff. It's why they get into the business.

It's the same with scripts. Producers want to discover new and exciting voices. Not translate.