To think the English attitude to learning can be very weird?

[DorothyL]

So often you read "no point in doing more than eight gcses/3 a levels, not needed for later/university"

How about doing subjects to LEARN something, not just to use them as a stepping stone? In other countries eg Germany youngsters continue with a broad range of subjects right through their school career.

Here I have met many teenagers who are woefully ignorant about all sorts of things - due to the fact they specialise far too early!?

[sterlingcooper]

It would have been nice to be given a love of learning at school, but studying more subjects at school would not necessarily have done that for you.

Yes I agree with that actually. I don't think the number of subjects studied is that important one way or another.

Incidentally, I think the UK is pretty well setup so that despite what you study at A level / university, you can career change at a later point. And with graduate training schemes etc the subject of your degree matters a lot less than the quality of it. This isn't the case at all in France,where the job market is rigid in terms of specific qualifications needed, eg you can't apply for a management job with an Arts degree, you have to have done a business degree

[PurpleGold]

Correct me if I'm wrong OP but isn't it just the German Grammar school Gymansium that offer such broad curricula? I believe the Realschule and Hauptschule are extremely basic in what they teach?

I went to Grammar school in Germany and I'd say it's a mixed bag in terms of education. It is true that the curriculum is broad and if you do Abitur (A levels) students are forced to combine the subjects in which they are assessed in a way that ensures a broad education, e.g. if you take French and History as 'majors' (Leistungsfach) you have to take maths rather than a soft science such as biology. At least in my time.

The advantage is indeed a broader education but most people have certain topic areas in which they are naturally strong. In my case being forced to do Maths until year 13 and be formally assessed for Abitur in Math because I had selected French and History as majors math totally spoiled my final mark as I was (and still am) hopeless at it. If I had been allowed to study Biology or chemistry I would have done better and been much happier and would have had different options open to me later on.

Also there are children who are good at learning loads of different topics and children who excel in one or two areas, Gymnasium in Germany isn't that great for the latter.

Saying that when I came to England to study I must say that most of the British students who were not privately educated rather struggled with the expectation of my University. They expected to be spoon fed, weren't quite as used to thinking for themselves (and critically!) and had definitely less broad knowledge than some of the German and French students.

[SisterViktorine]

OP, I think you need to forsake the idea you have of school as an all encompassing, holistic experience designed to educate in the broadest sense, including personal development.

State education just isn't funded for that. It's a nuts and bolts 'offer' that ensures all children receive a basic entitlement and most leave school with a recognisable set of skills- which GCSEs demonstrate. It's just the bare bones of the 'education' you are thinking of.

Some schools will manage to engage some students in a broader range of activities. But all they are really required to do, and therefore funded to do, is get the masses through the basics.

[Strawberryfield12]

I was really shocked when few years ago I saw statistics that about 40% of people in the U.K. leave education at the age of 15. Then I think of my grandmother who would be 105 now, she had spent 6 years in formal education. Here we are all those years later and for so many not much has changed... we like to point to Alan Sugar and the that he's done just fine with that education but then, how many of those 40% are anywhere near to be the lords sugars?

[blankpieceofpaper]

I'm an English teacher. There is rarely any time to teach them anything but the new exam specification.

[merrymouse]

I agree that specialising early isn't necessarily a good thing.

However, it also enables you to study subjects in depth. I really enjoyed my A-levels.

I think the main problem with education all over the world is lack of accessibility to continuing education, not just to prepare people for work but to improve quality of life.

On the other hand it's never been easier to learn informally. All 19th century literature and Shakespeare is available to anyone with a phone. You Tube is full of videos explaining science and maths.

[SeaEagleFeather]

completely agree DorothyL.

So sad when you hear people in their mid-20's saying "I'm done with learning, never going to take another course if I don't have to". This from people who've graduated a while.

There's a mindset that embraces learning new things and a mindset that doesn't see any value in new things and I think the UK culture tends towards the latter. There are exceptions of course!

[PurpleGold]

What I cannot understand in England is how much time they spend on Religious education in Infant school. BY age 6 my children had visited several sites of worship and have religious community leaders talk to them about the world religions in each year. At 4, 5 and 6!!!! Why ever? I can see the benefit of such a broad religious education in terms of tackling ignorance about other religions and promoting religious tolerance but only at a much later age, maybe when they are 9/10 at the earliest. I feel then these topics can be discussed in a critical manner but involving children in such intense teachings about Christianity, Judaism and Islam before the age of 7 is unnecessary. I genuinely don't get why the curriculum demands this.

I don't mind the bit of worship that is done during assembly but why focus so much lesson time on religion? I wish, at infant school age, they'd play or do PE or learn an instrument or indeed improve reading and writing instead of engaging so extensively with religion. It's unfathomable especially thinking that in most other countries children only start school at age 6 /7.

[KittyVonCatsington]

League Tables (which the majority of other countries don't have) play a big part in this.

Parents are told to use league tables as the main measuring tool of how 'good' a school is. In turn, schools try to do anything that makes them look favourable in those League Tables. Why wouldn't they?

It takes a very brave Head to offer subjects outside the EBACC, for example, which my Head does (we offer Latin, Astonomy, Classics etc.) However, every Open Evening/Morning, I find myself explaining to this to parents, who immediately question why we are a few places down the League Tables, as a result

Get rid of League Tables (they are a relatively new concept anyway, in the history of education) and a broader education will follow.

Why Gove et al, were so obsessed with the Chinese model of education, either, I will never know.

[Longtime]

Reading more carefully and the German system sounds better than the Belgian one but I do know that a few of the European systems are very similar to Belgium.

My two ds also moved out of the Belgian system, one did A levels and one did the IB. Although you do do six rather than three subjects for the IB, you still need to choose your subjects with a view of what you want to do at university because they will have expected you to do that subject (or those subjects) at higher rather than standard level. IB was fine for DS1 but DS2 wanted to do maths so concentrated on maths, further maths and physics and that suited him much better so it depends on the child and what they want to study later. They have continued to learn about the things that interest them, some stumbled on while reading or watching videos online.

When did left school at 16, they hadn't even reached the French Revolution in history so I don't think it's always the case that European children will have a better knowledge of things!

An interesting exchange with my dnephew same age as dd living in the UK: "Dd must know so much more than me with all this studying she has done." "No, she has learnt more than you but forgotten more than you too".

[Eolian]

Yy - league tables should be banned. Oart of the problem with schools is that they are run like businesses these days. Vicious competition between businesses mught be a good thing. Between schools it is not. Children are not products. One of the things often praised about the Finnish system is its equality of outcome and experience across the country. There is very little difference between the 'best' schools and the 'worst' schools. Everyobe goes to their local school and schools collaborate together rather than vying for pupils.

[SisterViktorine]

Why Gove et al, were so obsessed with the Chinese model of education, either, I will never know.

^^ This

[Evergreen17]

I work in Education. Unfortunately there is so much pressure on teachers and students that the aim os the scores it is very sad indeed. Lots of people would love to learn other things and develop their interests but sadly the system is taking that away.
But it is not only the UK, I have worked in other countries and continents and it was similar.
Best place was Oregon were the home schooling system is very well settled and the kids still go to centres for exciting subjects, languages, science, music and to engage with others. I saw it working well there.

[Longtime]

Purplegold, interesting you should say that about UK children not being able to think for themselves. My neighbour teaches history at one of the European schools here. As they do history in their second language, none of his students are native English speakers. He says you can always pick out the Belgians as they have no ability to think for themselves.

[Camomila]

It's a bit of a generalisation though, there are plenty of people that do courses 'for fun' as adults...cooking, French, yoga etc.

Of course this depends on them either having money to do them or there being funding for them.

If I had spare time and money I'd love to do a OU science degree.

[lightupowl]

Dorothy
You do have to specialise very early indeed in Germany, though. At age 10, after only 4 years primary school, you have to choose Gymnasium, Realschule or Hauptschule. This has a huge effect on the path your life will take. It is possible to catch up much later but not possible to move from, say, Realschule to Gymi at age 14.

I do agree that people in Germany seem to receive a good quality and wide ranging general education in comparison to the UK, though. I like the fact that trades and skills are highly respected in Germany and that university is not the be all and end all.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

Getting good grades is part and parcel of school life now. So of course there is focus on the how as well as the why.

That said lots of young people are perfectly able to separate out the difference between passing tests and learning things because they are useful or they simply want to.

My DC have done oodles of things in their school careers that fall into the later category. More GCSEs would not have helped.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

I would also add that at university lots of students continue to learn things outside their degree.
And this is very much encouraged.

[EleanorRigby123]

AH - the perfect German education system - as seeen through British eyes- again. Funny though that so many Germans are unhappy with their own system. Germany is one of the biggest markets for British private schools because so many Germans find it difficult to succeed with the Abitur.

Students who for example are gifted in maths and sciences but not good at language based topics still have to do modern languages and essay based subjects for Abitur and end up with poor marks. Those who do succeed at Abitur have less depth in their subjects than their British counterparts - which explains why many Germans drop put of University and why most do not complete their undergraduate courses until they are in their mid to late 20s.

I actually think that with a choice between A levels and IB England and Wales have the best of both worlds.

[GlowWine]

Dorothy couldn't agree more. Admittedly I too did a baccalaureate abroad with i think12 asessed subjects to the end, including 4 languages if you count Latin! And PE was compulsory.
I found it hard enough to choose between some sciences, and having to drop some 'minor' subjects at 16. Imagine my surprise when I came to the UK and everyone had just studied 3 subjects, and in most cases in no more depth than myself really (languages again....)
Sigh sometimes I wish I could educated my kids outside the UK.

[WaggyMama]

I was at school in the 70's and 80's, before the national curriculum. There was no internet then, only tatty books and a Library 10 miles away. Kids these days really have no excuse being ignorant and uneducated.

I'd love to do a degree for interest but I don't have £27k to spend on a hobby.

[ToastieRoastie]

You need to compare the content of a subject in a 'general' sense as part of a wider curriculum, against A Level.

I compared what I was learning at A Level compared to a German friend studying the same subject st the same she - the A Level was far more in depth.

It's not pupils only choosing enough to get by. It's the system forcing them to specialise too early.

I'd rather have had the option of a broader curriculum so I could learn more about various subjects, but the schooling system here doesn't allow for it.

[GlowWine]

Eleanor you're probably right, and I'm not particularly au fait with the German system either, and each system has its issues. We need something that allows breath OR depth depending on ability/inclination but I'm not sure where that would leave the qualifications. Right now the Alevel is still the default option in most places, and I'm waiting for the ebac to settle down, also in terms of university admissions and emploer opinion.
But I think the university drop out rate and long completion times in Germany have other reasons, the university system is just set out quite differently to the UK.

[80schild]

I completely agree the English education system is weird. I was brought up with it and am now putting my children through school and I just find it so one-dimensional. All this pushing children to get good results needs to stop and more focus on a good, broad education.

[WaggyMama]

I like the fact that trades and skills are highly respected in Germany and that university is not the be all and end all. I remember watching a programme about families in Germany and the father worked in a pencil factory. He literally made colouring pencils. However, he earned the equivalent to say £35-40k and had a good standard of living.

We have no industry left in the UK. The same job here would be NMW topped up with benefits.