To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

Waitrose how very dare you comment on me, you've seen a snapshot of one question I've asked, how the fuck would you know what I'm like.

As an aside, and I'm not saying this so anyone will feel sorry for me, but I have spent a lot of time building my self-esteem up to the point where I can say I'm awesome and actually believe it. I'm not going to let anyone take that away from me. So my views are a little naive....that's not a crime.

You said;

Ive realised that maybe there is more to it than toilets, but I also don't think you can tar all transwomen with the same brush. Not all men are rapists, not all transwomen are men in dresses

Is this about people fearing change? It really can't be about safety. There is nothing more predatory in principle about a transwoman using a woman's toilet. If you go down that route, lesbians wouldn't be allowed in women's toilets.
If people can't understand it as a concept, please don't judge it. Your own family member might be on the wronf end of that judement at some point. Trans people need to use toilets to wee as we do. Who am I to decide which facility they should use? WHy should it bother me? Surprised by the archaic reactions on here.

Would it have been better if I'd said 'I don't think one can tar all....' that's how I meant it, it wasn't directed any anyone

Pag !!!

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE ON MUMSNET SAY THAT TRANSWOMEN ARE RAPISTS

I know i am shouting

Do i personally have a problem with a transwoman in the ladies...no

Do i understand that other women do and why.....yes

Do i think NAUGHTY MEN NOT TRANSWOMEN may say they are trans to access womens toilets, changing room etc....yes

I apologise if I have offended you - that was not my intention.

I'm sure you are just fine, but you do need to educate yourself more on this topic to be able to see why there is such uproar.

I used to be like you OP and didn't u derstand the issue. I looked at it as just toilets,and just transwomen(men fully living as women,post op etc). However now i see the bigger picture...not only access in women's toilets is linked to women safe places like refuges,prisons (there's actually a guy in a women's prison now,indeed in isolation, awaiting trial for two rapes. He suddenly decided one morning he identified as a woman), things like only female parole officers/doctors/nurses/refuge workers for women etc. , a man can simply say he identifies as a woman (no name change,no different attire,no treatment or op) and he cannot be challenged on that. So if you go in the women's toilet and you see a bloke that is very obviously a bloke, you cannot object to it. If you complain, the staff or whatever cannot object to it because he said the magic words "i identify as a woman" , and nothing more is needed.

I don't feel threatened at the thought of transwomen in women's toilets.

However, I do not support it, because I am aware and sympathetic to the fact that many, many women do feel threatened, and that it is a slippery slope to other women-only safe spaces being compromised.

Above a certain age (the age where it is normal to go to the toilet by yourself), toilets should be used by a person with the corresponding genitals. None of the cis, "born", whatever. If you have a penis, you use the men's. If you have a vagina, you use the women's. Lots of places are introducing unisex toilets now; use them. If it's really about being validated, unisex toilets are fine as both men and women can use them. If that's not acceptable, your motives amount to little more than being able to whine about TERFs on Tumblr.

For anyone doubting the danger that TW can pose, read up on the cotton ceiling. A large proprotion of TWs believe that lesbian women should have sex with them, even though they have penises, because "we're women too". If a lesbian refuses (on the grounds that, y'know, THE TW HAS A PENIS), they're shamed for being 'transphobic'. It's an insidious, dangerous part of the transactivist agenda. I say this as someone who is LGBT, who has plenty of LGBT friends including one of my closest friends, who is trans (female to male). I say it without apology or caveat.

So after all the helpful replies,do you now understand why this is such a contentious topic....do you feel enlightened

I'm horrified by the sexism from people who think being a woman is a feeling that anyone can have

Sexism? Seriously?

In the developing world, women are still fighting for segregated restroom access so they can avoid rape in the bathroom.

but there is a massive issue with rape and women's rights in India. And whilst I get why under the present circumstances segregated toilets are a sensible work round. But that's effectively not tackling real problem of how many who perpertrate crime against women are treated.

I have absolutely zero problems with trans folk. I don't have a problem with anybody. Be whoever or whatever you want.

But I do take issue with a penis using what is supposed to be a women's only space though. It makes me feel massively uncomfortable. I don't object to the idea through some hatred of men identifying as women. Not by any stretch. I object because I feel spaces where people are often vulnerable and usually quite confined, such as toilets, should be separated according to sex. And I think it is fundamentally wrong to force women to accept otherwise when it makes them uncomfortable to avoid upsetting a man who identifies as a woman. That kind of thinking feels very backwards for our times.

I don't use our public swimming pool because the changing rooms and showers are flatly unisex. There is no other option but to shower and change among men. That is not something I feel good about at all, so I don't use them. I feel it is massively unfair to only offer that option to people. I believe the solution to all of this would be to introduce unisex toilets/changing rooms that anyone can use, as well as having male and female ones. It gives everybody a space to go while still keeping things 'separate' to a degree.

I've already said I realise there's more to it, do you want me to crucify myself too?

Bloody hell.

I don't really understand the toilet issue either OP, even having read this thread. Yes, violence against women is a big problem - but in toilets in particular? Everywhere I go to (in shops, restaurants and at work) are unisex toilets anyway.

WOW, I think I've just found myself on the wrong site. Since when did so many people on Mumsnet become so prejudiced?
I'm completely with you OP, I genuinely don't see the big deal because at the end of the day if someone is using the women's toilets for sinister reasons then I think they're just going to do it anyway.

Hummingbird lesbians don't commit most violent crime and not generally bigger and stronger than other women.

For everybody who thinks that we're trans phobic and that trans women have the same right to be in female spaces as "cis women" (aka women), could you please answer some questions of mine please?

If you think that trans women have the right to use women's toilets then fair enough but what I'm having trouble understanding is where do you draw the line? Do you think trans women should be allowed to work in rape crisis centres and women's refuges? Do you think trans women who are HCP's should be allowed to examine women who request a female doctor because of religious or cultural reasons and she should just suck it up?

And what if rape crisis centre and women's aid say, "no we don't want trans women working here" then are they trans phobic too?

Is a woman who has just been raped and wants to be examined by a woman and not a trans woman transphobic? What about a rape survivor who wants to talk to a female counselor?

The point is, where do you draw the line?

mygast the problem is that not all transwomen are of no danger for women.
Thats what stats are telling you. That the proportion of transwomen who rape and agrees women is the same than in men.

Most men are no danger for women. Most transwomen are no danger for women. But some do.

Maybe the question is: for you, what sort of space should be women only space for the benefit of women?
Refuge?
Changing rooms?
Dormitories?
Showers?

How are you going to be able to tell which transwoman is likely to be no issue at all and which one will create an issue for the women there?
If you can't tell the difference between the men that will cause problems and those who wont. How are you going to distinguish between the transwomen who wont be an issue and those who will?
The proportion is the SAME. So why is it a risk too high to let men into women space but it isnt with transwomen??

I love the idea that all transwomen just get about their business at trying to be women or being women.
But that's not what stats are telling us.

hummingbird lesbians are women. They are perfectly entitled to use women's toilets.

TW are male. They shouldn't be in women's toilets or other sex segregated space.

I have no problems getting changed or showering in front of lesbians. I have a massive problem being required to do it in front of this "male lesbian"

Summer - which posts, specifically, are prejudiced?

For those who are horrified by the transphobia on MN, I am horrified by the misogyny. Often from other women, who appear to give zero fucks about the safety of women and girls. As long as the transwomen feel validated, women and girls can get fucked, right?

Sexism? Seriously?

Yes. Reducing women from a biological fact to an unverifiable feeling (which tends to be based on gender stereotypes) is sexism.

Xpost AVirgin it seems we have similar questions...