To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

It's transphobia, op. I hope that in a couple of generations this outdated view will be phasing out and our society will be more inclusive. Fifty years ago people would have been horrified at the idea of same sex marriage. Now they're horrified at trans people being given the right to use the bathroom they feel comfortable with. Hopefully this will change in the future.

Glitterpants I trust that you have noticed I haven't called anyone transphobic. I'm not aware I've called anyone names. I was curious as I was only going from personal experience of the transwomen I've known and I guess I was struggling to understand why anyone would feel worried sharing a toilet with THEM, as in that particular transwoman. I do have a tendency to compartmentalise (if that's a word). This thread has shown me there are bigger issues and it's given me food for thought.

there isn't a sex segregation being lifted, though? Because they're not men. They may have been once, but not now.

Because they ARE men. Man/woman is a biological sex that is determined by your chromosomes, either XX or XY. You cannot change that.

YY Ouriana.

I bet if the woman in that scenario there refused to be examined by that doctor and asked for someone who was biologically female they would no doubt be called transphobic .

I mean, how dare she want to be examined by a woman and not a man who identifies after a woman after being raped? Disgusting!

I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet. I have done some work with Transmedia Watch who are trying to persuade MNHQ to treat transphobia as they would treat any other hate crime. I don't know what MNHQ have against the trans community or why they don't challenge the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies.

Just a small point. A couple of PP have said that bepenised folk commit the majority of violent/sexual assault, and I think some may have mentioned that a post-op transwoman is different to a man identifying as a woman.

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that transwomen commit crime at exactly the same rate as men (and also transman commit more crime than women). So a penis is not a good indicator, being male is (and that is not dependent on owning a penis)

^as a woman.

And OP, you are very fortunate if you cannot understand why many women are uncomfortable with men in female only sex-segregated space.

The "tar all transwomen with the same brush" nonsense?

Nobody is doing that. READ what people are telling you.

Manumission I've had a long day, I'm tired, so no, not really (mainly because I can't even remember what the last point was). I do think you're determined to pick holes in anything I type, I've said it's given me something to think about, what more do you want?

Research India's toilet issues if you'd like to know what desegregating the sexes does for bathrooms -- and for women's ability to participate in public life.

In the developing world, women are still fighting for segregated restroom access so they can avoid rape in the bathroom.

I don't think scenario is at all likely, though, Manumission, but thank you for the example, I understand where you're coming from more now. I still disagree, but I can see the argument more clearly.

I want disingenuous people to stop pretending that they don't understand the clearly stated reasons for unease around sex desegregation.

You don't have to misrepresent us to disagree with us.

It's just as dangerous, maybe more so, to go with the current thinking that any man who says he identifies as a women to be given free access to women's facilities and be put on women's hospital wards and in women's prisons as it is to have a true transwomen in a male prison / hospital ward and use mens facilities. Why should a women's right to be safe in these places come after pre-op transwomen and men who 'identfy' as women?

The way to protect the rights of transwomen isn't to trample over the rights of women to have separate facilities. The best way would be to have male, female and mixed toilets/changing rooms/hospital wards etc.

No one is saying that true transwomen are a danger to women but that the current idea that a man just has to say he identifies as a women is sufficient to allow him to use women's facilities. The point is that some men will say that they identify as a women, without any intention to transition, to gain access to places where women are vulnerable such as changing rooms and toilets for the sole purpose of harming the women there either physically or by making them uncomfortable.

Erm no, not awesome. Cringe.

I really think you need to educate yourself a little better on this topic, though.

There are some really fantastic posters on this thread that can help you.

OP I agree with you. I have been in rest rooms with transwomen and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I have also been in mixed gender toilets and that doesnt bother me either

why do you think there are segregated toilets in the first place?

Because they are a product of a patriarchal society where a woman could be considered improper simply by being in the presence of a male let alone peeing in the same room as one.

Thankfully we've come on a bit since then

So just in terms of logic this puzzles me

• If your position is that women who object to trans people in the ladies toilet are being ridiculous and awful because they are mistakenly and maliciously implying that all men are potentially violent, why can't transpeople use the men's? If men are not a problem why the need to use the ladies?

Surely the people most loudly being offended at the assumption that men are violent should see men's toilets as being safe places? So why do trans people need to use the women toilet?

Just curious because it makes no sense to me.

We have sex segregated space for the safety, privacy and dignity of women. Having public toilets for women was hugely important in allowing them to participate fully in public life.

Transwomen are male. They do not qualify for sex segregated space. Obviously if they pass convincingly nobody will know. Nobody is suggesting chromosomal testing on the way in, but having sex segregated space allows women to challenge male people going into their space. Have you never seen a Muslim woman rearranging her headscarf in the loos? Do you think she'd feel comfortable doing that with an obviously male person there? And victims of sexual assault who might feel uncomfortable in an enclosed space with an obviously male person?

Since Target changed their policy and made changing rooms organised by gender identity rather than sex there have been multiple cases of transwomen secretly filming or spying on women and girls getting changed. Their sales have reduced and their share prices has fallen.

And as others have said, eliminating this principle of sex segregated space takes with it, among others, hospital wards, prisons, rape crisis centres, DV shelters, survivor groups. Also the right to ask for a female HCP and getting one that's actually a woman.

The posters who say it doesn't matter becausethey wouldn't mind boggle me, how can you be so full of compassion and empathy for TW and not the millions of women who have reason to want and need sex segregated space?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I said up thread I've had the misfortune to be raped twice so I totally understand why women would be uncomfortable with a man in a female only space. I've also said I was basing my views on the transwomen I know, who I totally see as women (rightly or wrongly for some of you on this thread) so I was explaining my confusion as to why anyone would be threatened by THEM.

Manumission I wasn't saying anyone was tarring anyone with the same brush, I was merely saying it shouldn't be done, on either side. Can you show me exactly where I said 'you people on this thread are tarring transwomen with the same brush'?

don't think scenario is at all likely, though, Manumission

Sadly I think it's inevitable.

Have you seen the posters that have gone up in university toilets in various places

We will see in time who is right, I suppose, but I feel very pessimistic

No one is saying that true transwomen are a danger to women

I'm pretty sure that they are as potentially dangerous as any other man?

Anyway, my most pressing concern about loos isn't the worry of being raped.

It's that when women, as in biological women, are in the loos they are doing things that women need to do. Pee, poo, but also periods. I I'd rather not be addressing period issues with a man, any sort of man, in the loo next to me.

Actually, I wonder if men's loos will soon need to have sanitary bins in the cubicles?

I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet.

I'm horrified by the sexism from people who think being a woman is a feeling that anyone can have.