To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

Until relatively recently most people were probably oblivious to the fact that there were possibly people around them who might be a different sex to the one they were presenting to the world. They might only have come across one or two people who they knew were trans, and those people were most likely late transitioning homosexuals with gender dysphoria. They might have felt a bit uncomfortable if the person was very obviously not the sex they were presenting as but I doubt that they felt threatened. That was certainly my experience with the two transexual people I worked with/for in the 90s. They were very much exceptions, and posed no threat to me at all because they were gay, and also very unassuming and clearly quite troubled (I'm not saying that they might have been victims of homophobia themselves).

Now there are a steady string of media stories about transgender people, many of whom present in a very different way, a way that often feels very threatening. These are men who are forcing their way into womens spaces and shouting about it. This creates new suspicions in people's minds, so that when they see a butch looking woman an early thought might well be 'is that person a man' where previously the thought might not have crossed their mind. This only increases risks of abuse to all women, as well as to transexuals presenting as women. The only people it benefits is aggressive men, whether they are transactivist transwomen or common or garden abusive men.

if a MtF transitioning person feels uncomfortable using the toilets assigned for their sex (mens toilets)as they don't think of themselves as men can they honestly not understand that women don't think of themselves as trans and therefore would feel uncomfortable with someone of a different sex just like they do?????

Why is it honestly okay for women to be told it's only a toilets, nobody is staring at any genitals etc but when a trans person is saying they're uncomfortable having to use toilets with a group of people they dont feel they belong to no expects them to just get over it in this way??

If they identify as female (& let's be honest we don't know if they've had bottom surgery or not) they can use female toilets. Much more appropriate than sending a trans woman into the men's.

The idea that trans people using their gender bathrooms is a threat to children is a bit much. Trans is a gender identification issue and has nothing to do with wanting to harm children. More children are harmed each year by someone they know (usually family) than random strangers.

I didn't think this level of transphobia actually still existed in the UK.

Please stop the avalanche of bullying, troll hunting and personally abusive comments and PMs and stick to the facts.

Is there a new script somewhere I don't know about?

Because the most prolific arguments for women having to give up their rights for men always come from posters that are:

A) gender critical feminists (yet no one can explain why they then argue and persuade that anyone who wears a dress and makeup is a woman)

B) If they get too many rational people, especially women, disagreeing with them they start to complain about the 'avalanche' of abuse and bullying (that no one else can see)

C) If all else fails complain about transphobia, that yet again no one else (including MNHQ) can see.

I haven't read the full thread. Was just wondering could someone confirm that we've had at least 4 people run in type "bigots" / "transphobia" / disgusting comments and then flounce without actually pointing out where they've seen these Comments?

if this has not happened the "continuously offended" on MN are seriously failing

Amalfimamma they haven't let you down

I think I even counted more than four this time.

And yet another thread where accusations of 'transphobia' are made by posters who usually post and run and who utterly fail to read or understand what is actually being written by those who patiently explain again and again why many, many women are increasingly skeptical of the modern transactivist agenda and why this is harmful to women and girls.

For the comprehension challenged let me made two summaries.

1. It isn't just about toilets.

2. No one has said that transwomen molest women and girls. What has been said is that the crime rate amongst transwomen is the same as for the male population overall, AND that there is a risk to women and girls from men posing as women and entering women's spaces. Attention has also been drawn to fetishists who get off on entering women's spaces.

There was also a great post by Mindfields at 21.05 (16 Nov) that clearly pointed out the disrespect shown to women by some modern transactivists. I have experienced similar, although not in a bathroom context. Amongst other things, I have experienced being told not to use the word 'women' because it is offensive to trans people and I have been told by a person who identified as trans (but who had an old-style punkish haircut, wore torn leather and denim with studs and body ornaments of the spiky variety) that they had as much claim to talk about experiences of being a woman as I had, because they were one. In fact this person spoke for all women in the context I had to interact with them, and they often said things like 'we all know that women buy into stories of rape'.

I have also been accosted (as a child) by a man in a woman's change room. I was alone at the time and I was terrified. These days, with all the trans indoctrination going on I'd likely have been too scared to scream because I'd have been told to accept that men who identify as women should have free and unfettered access to women's spaces (I didn't scream that the time and he legged it).

More to the point, in my many years as a feminist I have only come across maybe two transwomen who gave a shit about feminism, women's rights and women in general. I've seen a handful more on the internet. What I mostly see is transwomen demanding women's spaces, energy and support whilst offering nothing in return. They have demanded that we give up our causes for theirs. Men's violence is rarely questioned, and, if it is, it is done so in a way that highlights violence against trans, as if women had not been the victims of this since whenever.

I do feel a lot for 'old style' transwomen who transitioned and got on with it (even if, to be frank, I rarely found them to be feminist allies). But the modern transactivists are a different kettle of fish. When they show me an ounce of respect, stop calling me 'cis' , recognise my basic humanity, realise that they cannot speak for women and cease demanding access for men to places where I feel a modicum of safety then I might change my views. But right now I feel as violated by them in symbolic and literal senses as I do by many men. No, this does not mean I think they will all assault me in the toilet (although I do think that letting men in this space harms women and girls). As said, this is a red herring. The dangers lie much, much deeper.

Great post Yetanother

Please stop the avalanche of bullying, troll hunting and personally abusive comments and PMs and stick to the facts.

These threads always descend into that, every single time. People who disagree that all transwomen are thugs with malign penises waiting to attack women always become the targets of a little flock of bullies citing the same little batch of extreme cases putting transwomen in a bad light whilst ignoring those who just want to go quietly about their lives bothering no-one. Understandably such posters decide that life's too short to argue with people with very set ideas who aren't interested in any opinion other than their own, and disappear. Then, with boring inevitability, we get posts like Amalfi's about people flouncing. Every. Bloody. Time. So then the bullies feel even more validated.

And don't bother to make me your next target, because I won't be reading. Which will no doubt make you even more smug, but then that was inevitable anyway - because there is a little coterie round here that cannot contemplate the possibility of admitting that trans people are maybe simply people the majority of whom are harmless and somewhat vulnerable, that plenty of non-trans men and women are capable of being violent thugs, and that maybe there are just more important issues to deal with in the world these days.

Well said @yetanotherspartacus!

People who disagree that all transwomen are thugs with malign penises waiting to attack women always become the targets of a little flock of bullies

You didn't actually read the thread did you?

Because no one says that, in fact many people argued eloquently that it certainly wasn't the case but that it still didn't mean women wouldn't be put at risk.

Yep. I'm going to chalk you up to another:

Run in

Point and yell 'transphobic...don't ask me to explain why I'm not telling you bigots!'

Run out.

I genuinely don't understand why transwomen aren't fighting for their own spaces rather than stealing ours.

It took women until the 1960s to get some sort of equality and to establish their rights to safe spaces and 50 years later men are taking it all back.

Yes.

Oh yes KateInKorea one of the last safe spaces for women to talk about how transactivism (not transgender people) is bad for women and it seems they want women silenced.

I guess screaming 'transphobe' and 'bullying' isn't working out so well for them.

And the day that thinking a male is a male becomes a hate crime is the day we are finally truly living in Orwell's 1984.

The thing is. Anonymous, no one gives a shit about what tw who quietly go about their business are up to, because they don't affect anyone else or threaten them.
The reason why transactivists who spout rape threats on the internet and call women people who disagree with them terf are referred to is because we are scared of them, based on what they themselves say. Surely you can see that?
And please link to any abusive or bullying posts, because I can't seem to remember seeing any

ageingrunner no one ever links.

The countless threads on this and still no one can link to this vile transphobia, bigotry and bullying.

I've never seen it. Maybe the definitions if those words have changed.

I think those words don't mean what we think they mean.

It's a classic technique- "you're doing a bad thing- and the fact that you don't know it's bad makes it worse. No, I'm not going to tell you- if you were a decent person you would know"

I find it incredibly unsettling- and I think a lot of feminists do. It's pretty much guaranteed to push women's buttons-and make us feel that we are being selfish and unfair for just wanting to hold on to our hard won rights.

I have a question for posters who believe that transwomen should have free access to women's toilets and changing facilities. Do you think men who identify as men should also have access to these spaces? If not, why not?

nooka

Good post.

As far as I know you're not allowed to question a transwoman's gender under the equality laws, because it's discriminatory. So you can't ask for ID or proof.

Also, as far as I know it is not illegal for men to use women's toilets. It is up to the discretion of the owner of the building. Only became a problem because of the transactivists.

I notice none of the "I don't understand why it bothers people" posters commented on my earlier post. I'll c&p it so you don't have to look for it...

I know a woman who was admitted to a psyc ward as she was delusional that all men were out to get her. She was actively afraid of her DH when he visited.
A transwoman was put in the ward with her. Her mh was impacted negatively, but at least the male-person felt validated.

Why does one delusion have priority over another?

I can see both sides to the argument. Most women who don't want a woman with a penis in traditionally women only spaces are not phobic, they probably have a "let live" attitude, but they probably think that these women only spaces are being further invaded after seeing the increased media attention.

Transwomen with penises probably do commit crimes at the same rate as men so although not all men commit crimes, most criminals are men. Though if you said "not all Muslims are terrorists but most terrorists are Muslim" then you would probably be called racist.

Sometimes the argument is made that a white person couldn't suddenly call themselves black. But then again if you insert the word "black" instead of "transperson" then you could say a lot of these posts are transphobic. I don't want a person who is black coming into my toilets. etc

Women don't have a penis.