To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

then you could say a lot of these posts are transphobic. I don't want a person who is black coming into my toilets.

That would only be true if there were "whites only" toilets. There is no comparison.

Oh but it's okay when they become "real" trans and have the op! trans women can face horrendous violence by using the men's bathroom. And what of trans men? They look like men, act and talk like men, but no penis, so which toilet do they use?

I don't really think anyone with a penis should be using female toilets but I also understand they have no-where else to go.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if there any statistics for violent crime perpetrated against women by trans women in toilets. If there are stats, is the rate of offending different to other violent crime committed by women against other women in toilets?

except zippey you are using the wrong group, the equivalent to men is white people, not black people. And that's the problem, it's the more vulnerable class that's being pushed aside by the stronger class (even though some members of that group might themselves be vulnerable, the group as a whole holds all the power still).

Single sex spaces like toilets and changing rooms are fundamentally there to keep women safe from men. If men stopped being a threat to women then we'd not need sex segregation and people who find it troubling to use the zones designated for their sex wouldn't have an issue and those that find it exciting to transgress the rules wouldn't have anything to transgress against.

But women are still threatened by men and sex segregation is still needed for our safety.

Just on the unisex toilet thing ... I am so against this. I'm quite happy for there to be women's toilets and either men's / unisex, but as long as there are women's toilets.

This isn't just about safety, it is about cleanliness.

I actively avoid a couple of rather nice bars near where i live because they are tiny and only have one unisex toilet and it is always too filthy and smelly for me to use.

With unisex toilets, I hate having to step in men's urine and clean it off the seat. I also hate having to put the seat down. It's even worse when I have to be careful lowering my pants so that they don't get wet with urine. And then there is the issue when the door does not lock properly and I am worried about a man barging in. I've also had the issue of there being no sanitary bin or having this stuffed full of crap so I have had to choose between trying to flush my product or carry it outside to the basin / bin area. I've also been in the basin area when a drunk man has come in and had a piss with the door partly open.

I avoid these bars and unisex toilets where I can, but would hate to see unisex become 'the new normal'.

In fact, I think that toilets on planes should be segregated by sex.

Unisex toilet - person says "I don't want Mtt in this toilet!" = transphobic.

Ladies toilet - person says "I don't want Mtt in this toilet" = not transphobic, toilets are separated by sex.

Ladies toilet - person says "I don't want butch lesbians in this toilet" = homophobic

Men's toilet - person says "I don't want Mtt in this toilet" = homophobic and transphobic

That'd be the difference, imo

Presumably the same reasons mums won't send their boys into male toilets or changing rooms without an adult.

^ this. a woman's toilet and any space labelled for women should be an adultcpesis free zone.

But would anyone. Seriously know? I'm sure trans women have been using female toilets for a long time. But it now seems like it needs to be waved in people's faces. Definate no to female prisons and refuges.

I wish we could move the conversation away from loos and away from violence. We just go round and round about cubicles and thenpretty remote possiblility of a trans woman being a sexual predator.

Can we talk about other women-only spaces. I think I talked earlier about the hypothetical situation of a frail, vulnerable elderly woman being given intimate care by a bearded 6ft nurse who identifies as a woman. Would people be happy with that?

Or a woman in the rape suite of a police station. Same nurse to do initial examinations. That OK?

Woman's sauna? Communal changing room in shops?

I tried the real, non-hypothetical woman in mental hospital situation. They don't want to talk about that, just the toilets and the 🙄 ....

One of the best children's nurses I know is a 6ft bald bloke. Absolute sweetheart, all the kids love him. Gender, in my opinion, does not affect your ability in your profession in this sense

not

Please stop the avalanche of bullying, troll hunting and personally abusive comments and PMs and stick to the facts

In all seriousness you should report these

It's really difficult. I actually try not to get involved in the discussions about loos because I do think that in the overwhelming majority of cases it's fine-and we've been sharing loos with transwomen -and transvestites as well- forever. It's the next step on that's problematic. And transactivists don't seem to want to go there.

"One of the best children's nurses I know is a 6ft bald bloke. Absolute sweetheart, all the kids love him. Gender, in my opinion, does not affect your ability in your profession in this sense"

Is he a man or a woman?

Also, the term 'trans' is quite big nowadays. Where do you start and stop?

But then again if you insert the word "black" instead of "transperson" then you could say a lot of these posts are transphobic. I don't want a person who is black coming into my toilets. etc

Skin colour is not a signifier of violence in the same way that sex is.

Agree with bertrands post of 8.44

As an experiment, can we try not talking about violence? Can we talk about conflicting rights? In the scenarios I suggested, whose rights should precedence?

Skin colour is not a signifier of violence in the same way that sex is

Exactly. Men commit over 90% of all violent crime and over 95% of all sexual crime plus nearly 100% of violent crime against strangers. Transwomen commit violent crime at the same rates as men who identify as men.

Most men are not violent or predatory. But the chances of any given man being sexually violent are 95 times higher than the chances of any given woman being sexually violent. It is simple irrefutable fact that men are more likely to be violent, even though most are not.

So the argument against having trans women in women's spaces is nothing to do with transphobia. It is a rational fear of sharing a space with someone much more likely to be violent than a natal woman.

MissAsippi of course there are many fantastic caring male nurses, and male caregivers generally. Men are just as capable of being professional as women are.
However , that doesn't alter the fact that many people (both men and women) feel frightened or uncomfortable receiving intimate care from people of the opposite sex. Don't you think patients should have the right to refuse care on the basis of biological sex?

Where is the evidence that males in womanface are subjected to violence in the mens toilets? We are just supposed to believe this is true because males are claiming it? Funny how men dont need a campaign to "I Believe" them.

Women are writing a number of websites which collect evidence via news stories and links to research of 'transwomens' male violence against women, but we are supposed to dismiss these collections of evidence as 'hate sites' and Disbelieve women who have been dehumanised as 'terfs'.

If a man is in the women's room I and my daughters will go elsewhere, regardless of what he is wearing. Our safety is too important to sacrifice to validate some dude with delusions.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if there any statistics for violent crime perpetrated against women by trans women in toilets. If there are stats, is the rate of offending different to other violent crime committed by women against other women in toilets?

Problem is that I believe under the current model, crimes committed by trans women are recorded as being committed by women, so some women-on- women violence will actually be trans women-on-women violence.

we almost need a Trans thread bingo, as they are always unrelentingly the same!

they have a PENIS, tick

then a link a few threads from 1989 showing that a serial killer wore dresses, not sure

then the claim that if you even dare to have sympathy for Trans people you are WOMAN HATER, ticks galore

although I love the claimthat they "enjoy" their peni. I don't especially "enjoy" my vagina-

Yetanotherspartacus - Some women have to use unisex toilets. Those who are disabled or who are parents/carers of opposite sex older children or adults. For that reason I think unisex toilets (with the right facilities) are the most important ones to have. So there are toilets everywhere that everyone can use. Disabled toilets are not necessarily unisex which is a pain if you need unisex.

Problem is that I believe under the current model, crimes committed by trans women are recorded as being committed by women, so some women-on- women violence will actually be trans women-on-women violence.

And that is a disgrace. there should be separate records kept.

I actually don't have a problem with the status quo as it has been for years. But 'expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman' which is what TRAs are pushing for means that any man can use women's facilities.

And it's not really about public toilets - those are just an easy target for people to bang on about transphobia (and isn't it interesting how little words always come into play in this argument - the OP says 'pop in', that person who writes for Glamour says they're doing 'a little wee or poo'. Funny that the reason that most of us don't want to use men's toilets is because they stink and yet suddenly a TW has fragrant tiny tinkles).

My concerns are about open changing rooms - in our pools, in shops, in schools. It's about toilets in schools and brownie camp sleepovers and school trips. It's about hospital wards and gynae treatment.

Men and boys who say they are trans are already saying they have a right to be there. Women and girls are being made to feel that their boundaries are unimportant and irrelevant. That they have no right to feel uncomfortable at being confronted with penises.

It is gaslighting on a huge scale.

And NotCaryl - I have not seen any examples of bullying and troll-hunting on this thread but if people have sent you abusive PMs, then you absolutely should report them. And I haven't seen much in the way of 'media trans hysteria' either - far from it. In fact, Trans Media Watch has been hugely successful at getting an inordinate amount of positive coverage of trans issues. Most commentators are frightened of speaking out about these issues because of the threats and abuse that women who have been brave enough to put their heads above the parapet have been subject to.