To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

See, I don't think it is hysteria. I think that is a very real agenda going on here. you say you have worked tirelessly over gender nonconformity. Do you get to see what people with AGP write concerning their motives for access?

Yes, I have been verbally abused because people thought I was trans.

This isn't because I am gender non conforming, but because my face and physical features are not very feminine, and there is nothing I can do about it.

Nobody is saying everyone should have to carry ID. What has been said is that if you wish to use a sex segregated toilet as opposed to a unisex one, you might be asked for ID. This is the situation now, and I cannot see how it can not be the situation.

I think there are already difficulties when there is one accessible toilet that also has the baby change unit in it, as there are competing priorities (does the wheelchair bound person with IBS need access to the facilities before the parent with a baby who has just exploded at both ends?)

Though it would be a novel twist on the regular MN disabled toilet thread / unnecessary use of, whereby instead of pp suggesting that the person hogging the loo has hidden disabilities pp will suggest that they are trans...

Would extending the disabled facilities be sufficient, do you think?

Datun - I'm not sure. I don't really know how many people would use them compared to now.

Many people, particularly the earlier posters here have little, or no idea about AGP. As it relies on fetishising the humiliation and victimisation of women, enhanced by being in their intimate spaces, for me, it seals the argument. And yes, it excludes FtT.

It also gives those genuine transwomen, who don't suffer from it, a bad name.

TRAs are a scourge.

Three loos, all the way.

You aren't required to carry ID. But in the event that you want to access certain services relating to age or sex, you may be asked for ID. If you can't provide ID, you can be turned away from the service. That is the current situation.

In the event of police involvement you can be asked your identity, but if you haven't any ID, the police confirm it by radio based on records.

And of course it has more of an impact on women, because they're the vulnerable group who most require sex segregated spaces.

In much the same way, disabled people are frequently asked to demonstrate, via ID, that they are disabled to access facilities. Able bodied people are generally not, because they are not the group who are vulnerable. That does not make it okay for random members of the public to ask to see the ID of disabled people.

Having known someone who was assaulted in female toilets... No they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near female only spaces. Penis still attached or not.

This shouldn't even be up for discussion!

I am in the UK.

Nobody has said women should have to carry ID around!

It is like the cinema. I assume it is unlikely that I will be asked to prove my age, so I don't take ID. In the event I am asked for ID, if I don't have it, I can't go to the cinema.

The same is the case with loos. If someone in authority asks you for ID to show you are a woman, and you don't have it, you might be asked to leave, but it is highly unlikely you will be asked.

That is the situation now. Nobody is guaranteed access to a public toilet. You might be questioned by someone in authority and asked about your identity.

I have never suggested that the cinema is of the same degree of importance as going to the toilet, but the situation around ID is the same. As you seem unaware that you can be asked for ID in very many public situations, I was giving the cinema as an example that you might be familiar with.

And cinema ID is there to protect children from inappropriate content, which is a rights issue.

If you don't understand that people can legally be asked who they are when accessing toilets (and indeed all public facilities), how can you possibly be an activist around this very issue?

why would all women be required to get ID cards? (And what would we call them? Piss Passports?)

I think most people on here are arguing for the status quo: that women and transwomen who have a GRC use the ladies, and men who are found in the ladies and give cause for concern may be challenged, either by other users or by someone like a bouncer or security guard. No one needs to carry ID now to get into the ladies

I agree that there is an issue about non-gender conforming women being challenged, and I would argue that this is a direct result of transactivists' (predominantly those who want the validation of being seen by others as women) lobbying on the issue raising it as an issue. But what is your solution (apart from the wider issue of taking apart gender stereotypes)? Consider that it's an impossible situation and we should all use unisex toilets? Or stick with broadly the status quo? Or three toilets?

Some spaces should be segregated on the basis of sex.

There should be some exemptions to this, and those people should have appropriate ID. That decision should be made on a case by case basis by psychiatrists and other HCPs.

It should be illegal to ask trans people for greater ID than anyone else, as is the law currently.

The point is that the basis of segregation is sex, and people ask for an exemption and demonstrate why they should have one through a screening process. The basis of segregation should not be gender.

Yes, exactly, Olenna, until trans activism none of this was really a problem.

FFS, it is not some bizarre idea! If you are in public, you can at any point, be asked by authority figures to account for your behaviour or presence.

There is not some magical ring around toilets that exempts them from the law that applies to every other public space.

All this stuff about how we will all have to carry ID cards or there will be police outside of every toilet is nonsense. Just because laws exist it does not follow that we will all be treated in an authoritarian way in order to enforce them.

And I never said it was normal to have to show ID in order to pee! In fact I said it was highly unlikely that you would be asked.

This is just so strange that you keep making up stuff I have never said.

And it is wee, not pee, which you'd know living in the UK.

NGC women absolutely are collateral damage here, along with non-NGC women. Which is why it frustrates me so much when posters on here glibly run in, shout stuff about transphobia, proclaim they couldn't have any problem with anyone in the cubicle next door then run off, without engaging in the far-reaching implications of the proposal that anyone who says that (today) they "feel like a woman" should have access to the ladies loos